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Willys Hard Start

#1 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 30 October 2007 - 07:57 AM

Since I only start the Willys once in a while lately it has been cranking a bit before she fires up. Once she fires up I go for ride with the kids, pick them up from school, etc The Jeep is warm by now and when I go to start it up again she cranks and does not fire up right away. :down: My old 6 volt WWII NOS battery does not seem to keep up with this much cranking so I've been carrying a 6 volt jumper lately.

First thing I did was purchase a WWII Willard battery. It amaze me that I found a company that created the exact look as it was back then. Here is the good part... it is an Optima Red sealed 6 volt. Yes no water to add, built inside an authentic Willard rubber battery case with 3 red caps. If you open the caps to add water you will see the optima inside. Please don't add water. :drunk: They warranty for 3 years and last for about 7. Here is the bad part. It cost me $280 to have and comply with my authentic WWII 1942 Willys. :cry: :1baby: I was thinking really hard to just get any 6 volt battery but I could not do this to my girl. :wub: :ax:

The War Department does not know about this purchase and if any of you spill the beans I will have to kill you. :vince: :bluto:

My plan was to isolate the problem eliminating the possibilities until I got to the problem. :crazy:

Checked carburetor, fuel float and all seem fine. Checked spar plugs and gap, all ok. Fire seemed to be a bit weak coming out of the 4 wires so my next step was the distributor cap, rotor, points, condenser and finally if these were all ok I was going to replace the coil as I'm not sure on how to trouble shoot a bad coil.

I took the distributor cap off and saw the rotor had a bit of carbon spot at the tip and on top middle center. Took an emery board cleaned out the contacts of the rotor. Cleaned out the cap brass connections especially the spring middle contact inside the cap, that seemed pretty carboned up.

Installed the rotor and dizzy cap back on and wow! :yahoo:

The Willys has never fired up so fast and does not miss a beat now. My question... can a simple thing like this actually cause a long crank :alien: The only thing I can think off is that juice was not passing through enough from the rotor to the contacts on the dizzy cap. The Willys starts now like if it came out of the show room. Would appreciate feed back on this.

I did not get to check the point gap since it all worked but I noticed that getting the cam to the high side of the points can be a problem with all the cranking. Someone told me that turning the fan blade with two hands rather than cranking is more accurate rather than a hit or miss with the cranking. Can you fellows confirm this or if you have any other tricks up your sleeve I would love to hear it :shock2:
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#2 User is offline   JeepinIan 

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 08:29 AM

Yep, that can and will cause starting issues as the spark has to cross the rotor to cap gap first then the plug gap.


Keep on going Jim, you're proof that an old dog can learn new tricks! :alien:
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#3 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:59 PM

Yep U R right. We use to keep a metal thin fine file in the glove just for this reason & a very small flat screw driver (the kind U use for eye glasses) to scrap the caps electrodes to get the carbon off. When it started to run bad we just got the file out.

P.S. We also carried a spare set of points/condenser, but we were up in the mountains & the store was long off. Breaking down on the logging roads stinks, U had to walk back, so that's why we started to carry the stuff. Seeing U R a city boy :crazy: U shouldn't have that problem. :alien: :drunk: :shock2:
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#4 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 30 October 2007 - 05:26 PM

I still carry spare points, condenser, rotor.

Btw guys, why is it that the rotor and cap carbon up so much. I can understand a bit from the slight spark but why does it build up so much in less than 1k miles to the point that it actually becomes a problem :cry:

What no tips on getting the Dizzy cam to the high side to check the point gap besides me moving the fan blade... you guys are slacking. :naughty:
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#5 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 05:39 PM

Keep your points clean & the charging system up to par & then tell us what U find. :naughty: :cry:
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#6 User is offline   fishalways 

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:50 AM

Whats a distributor cap???

I have a coil rail. :biggrin1:

All joking aside. On my fathers old 28 Bertram, we always carried spare caps and rotors and coils for the engines. You can imagine the corrosion you would get on the terminals in the saltwater environment. It doesn't take much to foul the cap and or rotor. The buildup could be caused by the dwell being to long or short, oh and the buildup usually isn't carbon it is oxidation ie corrosion. It only looks like carbon. If it was carbon it wouldn't interfere with the conduction of the electricity. For the same reason that carbon fiber can short wires. Carbon is a conductor.
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#7 User is offline   Rambo 

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:33 PM

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#8 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 01 November 2007 - 08:47 AM

View Postfishalways, on Oct 31 2007, 10:50 AM, said:

The buildup could be caused by the dwell being to long or short,

What exactly do you mean by the dwell :question:

Quote

oh and the buildup usually isn't carbon it is oxidation ie corrosion. It only looks like carbon. If it was carbon it wouldn't interfere with the conduction of the electricity. For the same reason that carbon fiber can short wires. Carbon is a conductor.

Good info, learn something new every day. I guess Greenlantern's chart is incorrect! :biggrin1:

Btw Green, I like your JeepDew Avatar. :roll: :lol: I think you should bring back the old large picture thread back up on the Photo Farm. :biggrin1:
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Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
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#9 User is offline   JeepinIan 

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 09:29 AM

View PostJim B, on Nov 1 2007, 09:47 AM, said:

What exactly do you mean by the dwell :biggrin1:


Dwell angle is a measure of the duration of time that the primary circuit of the ignition system is closed to energize the primary windings of the coil. It expressed (and measured) in degrees of rotation of the distributor rotor, hence the use of the term "angle".

In actual operation, as the distributor mechanism rotates, the points (or electronic module in electronic ignition systems) are closed for a certain number of degrees of rotation, and open between these points. Simply as a matter of interest, this means that the total number of degrees during which the points are closed, plus the total number of degrees that they are open, will equal 360 degrees.

In four cylinder engines, there is usually ample time for the primary circuit to be open and closed (to energize the coil) four times during each revolution of the distributor, which makes the dwell value less critical than in 6 and 8 cylinder engines. In four cylinder engines, there is more of a concern over having too much dwell time (during which time the coil is energized) which can result in high coil temperature and premature failure.

In electronic ignition systems, the dwell value is fixed at approximately 50 degrees. In conventional systems, (considering the difficulty involved in checking and adjusting for dwell) most folks simply rely on the setting of the point gap to provide the proper dwell time. In the event that you want to check your dwell, here is a reprint from the ignition chapter of our service and overhaul manual:
Ian Stewart

If you don't fight for the trails, there won't be any trails to fight for.

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#10 User is offline   Jim B 

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 10:02 AM

View PostJeepinIan, on Nov 1 2007, 10:29 AM, said:

most folks simply rely on the setting of the point gap to provide the proper dwell time.

I knew I could depend on you. :biggrin1: :question:

I also noticed that with these old girls :biggrin1: that the point gap changes after time and has to be reset and check often as the plastic piece on the points that rides on the cam shaft wears out.
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Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
"Speak not Evil of the absent for it is unjust." George Washington, Rule 89 of Civility and Decent Behavior.
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#11 User is offline   JeepinIan 

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 10:45 AM

View PostJim B, on Nov 1 2007, 11:02 AM, said:

I also noticed that with these old girls :biggrin1: that the point gap changes after time and has to be reset and check often as the plastic piece on the points that rides on the cam shaft wears out.

Yep, a rough setting can be done w/ a paper matchbook cover. It is about the right setting for most applications.
Ian Stewart

If you don't fight for the trails, there won't be any trails to fight for.

What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.
Zig Ziglar

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." ....

John Stuart Mill

#12 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 03:31 PM

I still have my old Dwell meter & allen wrench :biggrin1:

Ian, is right most of the time when U set the dwell it stays, I messed w/the points more than the dwell.
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