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Using winch to control front suspension

#1 User is offline   YJWhenUCanTJ 

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 08:30 PM

Recently I stepped up to 5.5" springs in the khaki jeep. While this has its advantages over the 4.5" springs in there previously, a disadvantage is the tendency for the front end to unload on steep climbs. I wanted to be able to control the front from unloading by using my winch. After some thinking about how this could be done, I came up with a template for a tab that would be welded to my front axle. On most stock steering set up jeeps, this tab won't work but because this jeep has a cross over steering setup, I was *fairly* confident that something would work without getting in the way of the drag link or track bar. The other thing I had to consider was the angle of the pull of the winch line down to the axle. Since the wheel base is stock, any angle of 45 or less is going to pull the axle horizontal more than vertical. It would have been great if I could use the winch to compress the front suspension, but I could tell early on that the best I could hope for would be no more than an inch of compression. What I was shooting for was a way to keep the front from rising, any compression I could get out of the winch would just be a bonus.

This first pic shows the tab cut and welded to the axle in position. The tab is made out of 1/4" plate, plasma cut and mig welded. The angle doesn't show it, but the tab only sticks out in front of the tie rod about 1/16". Since the tab and the tie rod move together, only hitting the tie rod on something might push it up enough to contact the tab. But hey, it's aluminum so it'll bend back and not complain.

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This pic shows the final setup and the winch line connected. The angle is 60 degrees and I was able to get 1/2" of suspension compression comfortably. The winch line and hook actually fit between the front bumper and the frame cross member. There's no rough edges for the line to get cut on. The connection works 100% to keep the front from unloading. I can jack up the front from the bumper and pick the axle off the ground. If the suspension compresses more during a run, the line relaxes and stays below the steering stabilizer. It's no rock buggy, but it's one more choice I have to safely attempt a vertical climb.

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While looking at how the front suspension moves with the new springs, the shocks are not long enough, not even close. So the next project in the next few weeks is to add some 14" stroke Fox emulsion shocks up front with some Poly Performance custom shock mounts. I haven't decided if I'm going to outboard the rear shocks or angle them in more so I can use a longer shock.
David M.
2003 Sport
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#2 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 08:38 PM

I'm not a coil spring guy, but why not just get some of these
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& not go through the hassle of wondering if you will loose a spring or not on articulation, or am I just not following you. :tooth:

P.S. I like the fabrication, looks good. :beer:
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#3 User is offline   YJWhenUCanTJ 

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 08:24 AM

Those are limiting straps you posted. They do the same job, limiting the travel of the axle, but not necessarily for the same reason. The axle tab I have is centered on the axle. Limiting straps are usually found out at the ends. The axle tab's job is to prevent the entire front end from unloading. Unloading happens on long travel suspensions when climbing up very steep faces or hills...the front springs and shocks will push the Jeep farther away from the axle because the weight of the front of the jeep is no longer over the front axle. The risk is that at steep enough angles, this pushing away can actually move the center of gravity beyond the point where the jeep will roll over backwards. In lesser cases, you just lose traction with the front tires because there's very little weight over the front axle/tires as the Jeep climbs.

The limiting straps are usually attached toward the ends of the axle and their length is chosen to determine the maximum amount of travel of the end of the axle. The axle tab and winch line prevents the entire axle from moving away from the Jeep. The limiting straps allow suspension travel in both compression and rebound directions, the tab only allows compression movement. This concept comes from the UROCK and WEROCK rock buggies who use the winches exclusively now for controlling the front (and rear) suspension from unloading and to lower the center of gravity over certain obstacles.

When I add the 14" stroke shocks up front, I will also be adding limiting straps so I'm not using the shock as the limiting factor out at the corners. Hope that helps to clear things up.
David M.
2003 Sport
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#4 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 03:22 PM

Oh, I understand now, so U just don't to tip over, but isn't that what the roll bar is for, :sneak: . J/K. Let us know how it works.

Question: Did U balance the axle to find perfect center or does it have to be that precise?

Thanks,
RollBar
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#5 User is offline   Mr.Bead 

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 03:56 PM

Dave

looks good. did you look at the possibilty of adding a small atv winch someplace up front for this so you still have the use of your regular warn if you need it to get up the incline. I know some of the rock buggies are using them due to their size and weight. by the way who made the plate and welded it?

Lee
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#6 User is offline   YJWhenUCanTJ 

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 05:20 PM

Rollbar, yeah, the tab is pretty much centered under the weight of the Jeep. It's off just a hair so that the welding tip could get in there on the pumpkin side of the tab.

bch4x4cop, a buddy of mine had the tab cut for me at his work. They have PLENTY of 1/4" plate around. The guys that do MIG welding every day at my friend's shop did all the prep and welding. Seems they took an interest 'cause it was something different than the same ole' same ole'. I wanted to do it but they beat me to it. :tooth: We still have the template if there's any interest. I looked at Stu's 2nd winch idea to compress the suspension. I didn't want to buy, install and wire a second winch tho. I'm cheap. :beer: This mod had a cost to me of $0.00.
David M.
2003 Sport
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#7 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 05:23 PM

I wonder if one could work om a CJ for a tie-down etc. Don't ask me for what right now but I'm sure the answer will come while I'm finishing the 8.
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#8 User is offline   Safari Outfitter 

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:16 PM

I was wondering what the synthetic winch line will cost to replace after it's been chaffed on a few rocks while attached to the axle that way?

#9 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:22 PM

Safari Outfitter, on Jan 3 2007, 11:16 PM, said:

I was wondering what the synthetic winch line will cost to replace after it's been chaffed on a few rocks while attached to the axle that way?

Go here for an answer to that
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#10 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 04 January 2007 - 09:58 AM

David,

Very nice simple mod and for the right price too. :lol: I've also entertain numerous times in doing something like this. If I were to do it I would do the small atv setup so that I would not have to give up my winch. Since I'm also cheap and getting lazier by the day (tube fenders still sitting in the garage), I'll probably never do it. :blind:

I did do the next best thing without given up the main cable. It helped but not as well as the tie in to the axle. Got the adjustable shocks. On the street they are set to 0, when I trail around 5 or 6 and when I'm climbing I set them to 12. I don notice the difference while the axle is trying to unload. If I was you I would also cover that rope with some kind of heavy protection sleeve and keep a good eye. As you well know I'm not a good fan of rope no matter how thick it is.
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#11 User is offline   YJWhenUCanTJ 

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 09:58 AM

Safari Outfitter, on Jan 3 2007, 10:16 PM, said:

I was wondering what the synthetic winch line will cost to replace after it's been chaffed on a few rocks while attached to the axle that way?

The cost to replace it will keep me from using it where there's a chance a rock might catch it. :blind:

I've been on a few hill climbs around 60 degrees without any obstructions to catch the line. there's a few of those spots in our local wheeling areas, some only about 10 feet tall, others more than 50 feet high. Some I've done because the jeep's COG was low enough, others I have not and watched similar jeeps rock back on 2 wheels. I think it will also work on a ledge where you start with your front tires up most or all of the ledge before you gas it, like the ledge after slick rock, or all of helicopter pad. The rock face on helicopter pad IIRC is steep but mostly smooth, nothing jagged enough to catch the line.

I'll find out its worth in trials and trails. If it sucks, you can tell me "I told you so".
David M.
2003 Sport
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