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TCase T84, Clutch Tube & Leaks

#1 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 09 January 2006 - 09:27 AM

I'm removing my TC from the Willys to seal a leak that was not properly done when they mated the TC to the Tranny. I'm leaving the Tranny on the Willys and I'm removing just the TC.

All is disconnected and ready to come out. I ran into a problem removing the Clutch tube support that goes into the TC. It is a ball pivot. I'm hoping to get some help here from older CJ guys that might have done this. :lol:

I disconnected the bracket support attached to the frame channel in order to slide the support tube to the rear and off the ball pivot at the TC. After I did this I don't have enough angle. The manual advises to move tranny and TC to the right as it is being pulled out... but I'm leaving the Tranny in so this is not an option. The only thing that I can think of is to leave it in place, slide the TC back with Clutch tube (since bracket is disconnected at frame) and as it comes out remove it and hopefully catch the tube and spring.

Any other trick for removing the Clutch tube support before I slide the TC back :wacko: Also, how hard is it to keep the bearing shaft on the tranny as the TC is being pulled out, can I push on it :wacko: I know that if it comes out I will have to pull and rebuild the Tranny and I don't want to do this. :gun: :ya:
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El Niño
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#2 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 05:32 PM

1. Remove the cover plate on the rear face of the TC.
2. Remove the cottor key, nut & washer from the main shaft
3. If U can remove the TC main drive gear do it but if not keep going.
4. Remove the transmission to TC bracket.
5. Remove the TC

6. if U didn't remove the main gear Jim then Brace the end of the trannys main shaft so that it can't move in the tranny, then pull the TC to the rear to loosen the gear. When U separate the two housings make sure the tranny main shaft bearing stays in the tranny case.
7. Tie up the main shaft w/tye-wire or place the plate back on so the shaft don't come out.
8. Get a brass/leather hammer to knock it free.

If #8 don't work get a B-H & beat it until U have to order a new one. :sneak:

I would have to see it, got a pic?
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#3 User is offline   Rambo 

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 07:49 PM

:biggrin1:
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GUAPERIA OFF-ROAD READY PA TU MUNDO

visit 5050offroad.com

#4 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 10 January 2006 - 07:54 AM

Ok, I don't have pics but it was the clutch tube that was giving me problems that attached to the T18. I knew about the bearing shaft on the tranny and I could deal with that but this darn tube was really giving me a hard time because everyone was telling me that I should have the angle to slide out and I kept telling them that their drive train must be all the way to the passenger side.

I took Rollbar's advise and got a Posted Image :bbq: .... NOT. :cool1:

But after lunch I must have regenerated a few more brain cells and I loosen (did not take off) the Tranny mount. This allowed me the enough angle movement that the clutch tube came right off. Tranny was taken down, I felt the bearing shaft trying to come out and gave it a good push inside, as the T18 fell on my knuckle :cry: I knew she was out. :type: It is now sitting on a square plastic box. No wonder the mating surface was leaking, the paper gasket looked like it was re-used 8 times. :2thumup:

If you guys want to see what a Clutch tube and a T18 looks like let me know and I'll post some pics later.

Hey Rollbar, could not find any torque specs on any of the military manuals (I guess it was always 2 screams) for the nut on the tranny bearing shaft, I marked it just in case. You would not happen to have this info on a civilian Jeep that used the T18 would you :biggrin1:
Posted Image Posted Image
El Niño
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
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#5 User is offline   DanStew 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:26 PM

I am trying to remember hwne i did mine when i had that setup. I do not believe there is a apring in thetube. you disconnect the mount off the frame and you can pretty much wiggle it out. You may want to try and spin the pivot ball off the tcase, or put a jack under the Tcase and tranny adn lower it a touc hto get some more room to remove it. And remember it is a Dana 18 Tcase. The T18 is the big old heavy Transmission.. i know i have one, and it is a pig :angry1: You can get a new pivot ball pretty easy.

Jim go over to www.earlycj5.com there is a flatty section there and you can get extra lots of info there because there are alot of people with the same set up :angry1:
Dan Stewart
1963 CJ5 "School Bus"
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#6 User is offline   DanStew 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:27 PM

I would keep the Dana 18 on the T90 or what ever 3 speed it is, because you run the chance of pulling the mainshaft out of the tranny adn then all the little needle bearings fall to the bottom of the case. not fun,
Dan Stewart
1963 CJ5 "School Bus"
1988.5 Suzuki Samurai

#7 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:22 PM

Not off hand Jim, I have to look. Real sick. gotta go.
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#8 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:45 PM

DanStew, on Jan 10 2006, 08:26 PM, said:

I do not believe there is a apring in thetube. you disconnect the mount off the frame and you can pretty much wiggle it out.

Dan,

Thanks for the info. On the prior post I mentioned how I solved my clutch tube problem. I've looked a the CJ5 forum, real good info there but from reading some of the post it is mostly with later model vehicles even the Flatty section has to do more with up to date fixes and mods. Nothing wrong with this as it has similar info that sometimes applies and probably I missed something. It would be nice if some of you guys would post up some of your Vintage civilian setups with pics on here. :ya: I found that the G503 forum is strictly WWII and other Military, it stays more within my parameters. I did a search with regards to the clutch tube, found some info on the G503 but still did not address the problem as everyone kept saying it should of just slid out. :cry1: I guess there is always that one. :cry:

Your right about the T18 and the Spicer 18. I had the thread title correct and started calling it T18 on my prior post. Go figure. :wacko:

Here is a pic of the Clutch tube.

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The frame side has no spring, just ball and grease, the TC side has a spring that is kept inside the tube by the cotter pins that you see going through the middle of the tube. Notice the capture spring at the end. My theory is that the spring is there to prevent vibration or knocking against the tube (driving you nuts) when the TC is running.

Yes I was concern about the main shaft bearing coming out, took a chance. :cool1: I felt it coming out and was not that hard to push in as the TC was being pulled out. An extra pair of hands helped as I was doing this. I was warned about this procedure by one of the guys in the G503 and was in the back of my head all the time as the TC was being pulled out. :angry1: Let's just say it was priority one. :gun: It's becoming quite fun working and learning on the old girl. :devil: Much different than a TJ.

Below are some pics of the T84J tranny still under the Willys and the Spicer 18 out. Check out the bearing shaft on the T84.

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Here was my main leak and why I needed to take it down.
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The rest are of the Spicer 18 getting cleaned up. I will not use paper gaskets. I plan to use Permatex Red high heat gasket maker which has done well for me on the TJ. What have you been using to seal yours up :angry1:

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El Niño
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
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#9 User is offline   jeepincj78 

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 01:06 PM

Jim,

Excellent write up so far!!! :gun:

Welcome to the wonder world of older vehicles where there will always be a leak from somewhere.

I personally have never used the Permatex red for my self, but I have personally used Loctite 5699 /gray with excellent results.

I started using this productafter I noticed that Jaguar uses it for their leaks on there oil pan leaks.



Frank
1978 Jeep CJ7 4.0HO w/ Headmann Headers, MSD ignition, front dana 30 with Warn axle shafts, Warn premium locking hubs, custom drive shafts front and rear, NP 435 Transmission (6.69 to 1 first), dana 300 transfercase, model 20 rear differential with superior axles, Ox lockers front and rear, 4.10 gears, Currie twin stick, Warn premium front locking hubs, BDS 4" spring under suspension, Rancho RS 5000 shocks, revolver front shackles, warn XD9000I winch, 35" General Grabber M/T, Rubicon Express hand throttle and sway bar disconnects, dual optima batteries(red and yellow top) w/incab switch, and a on board hot water shower.

#10 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:32 PM

The War Dept. isn't gonna let U out after this little project is completed. :sneak:

P.S. Nice write up.
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#11 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:47 PM

I've been advised by some of the guys that have worked on the T84/Spicer18 to use the gaskets. Why :gun:

Do you guys see any reason vs my Permatex that has been true blue to me all these years :lol: I've used other gasket makers that have not worked, when I switched over to the Red Permatex a few years back when I installed the D60s I've not had a problem since. :amazed: I really don't feel like taken this TC down again. :cry:

Let me know how you guys feel on this. :unsure:
Posted Image Posted Image
El Niño
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
"Speak not Evil of the absent for it is unjust." George Washington, Rule 89 of Civility and Decent Behavior.
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#12 User is offline   jeepincj78 

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 04:13 PM

Jim, I guess the end result if you have found something that works for you and you are happy with it, stick with it. However, if some other people that have done the job before are telling you to use a certain thing, I would follow there advice, as far as gaskets are concerned.

Frank :gun:
1978 Jeep CJ7 4.0HO w/ Headmann Headers, MSD ignition, front dana 30 with Warn axle shafts, Warn premium locking hubs, custom drive shafts front and rear, NP 435 Transmission (6.69 to 1 first), dana 300 transfercase, model 20 rear differential with superior axles, Ox lockers front and rear, 4.10 gears, Currie twin stick, Warn premium front locking hubs, BDS 4" spring under suspension, Rancho RS 5000 shocks, revolver front shackles, warn XD9000I winch, 35" General Grabber M/T, Rubicon Express hand throttle and sway bar disconnects, dual optima batteries(red and yellow top) w/incab switch, and a on board hot water shower.

#13 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 06:32 PM

Gaskets & permatex. No permatex sells a blue that is good for oily situations, pick the right one.
*MY CJ IS YOUR yJ's DADDY*

*Who Needs A Stinking Manual When You Have A Fat Wallet For Tech Support!*

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Support the Central Florida Bible Camp for kids

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#14 User is offline   DanStew 

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 07:32 PM

the thing about gaskets is they can act as a "Shim" sometimes. I eliminated the gaskets and used RTV and had no problems, the Tcase still leaks but that is because i didnt prep that good. Main thing is , surface has to be totally oil free, or the RTv wont stick and you will have a leak. guess what i didnt do :(

On the early cj5 board, there is alot of good info, there are alot of mods to th eearly jeeps and sometiems not much "military" tech. Alot the military stuff still carried over to the civvie market. The G is a good forum, but if you "modify" anything differnt than what was exactly factory, it sems to be frowned upon on the G. I look over ther eat time, but since i dont have much stock, i would be ostrasized
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#15 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 12 January 2006 - 10:38 AM

DanStew, on Jan 11 2006, 07:32 PM, said:

the thing about gaskets is they can act as a "Shim" sometimes.

The G is a good forum, but if you "modify" anything differnt than what was exactly factory, it sems to be frowned upon, i would be ostrasized

Dan,

Thanks for reminding me about the shim point of view. :lol:

With regards the G, yep they would come down hard as they are all purist. Nothing wrong with this but some guys do carry it like a cult. Sort of like we do our Jeeping. :cool1:

Fortunately this is what my goal is and the G helps me out a lot. I'm about 98% correct in original parts with the two percent being tires & canvas (correct but restored with non original). But when it comes to troubleshooting mechanics & similarity every bit helps and the CJ5 forum also seems to be a good tool.

By looking at the pics that I posted, one of the guys at the G spotted what my problem was after all seemed very clean & what looked to be a gasket issued. Look at the first pic on the T84 still on the Willys, below the main bearing shaft you have the two counter shafts with interlocking plate. The interlocking place is a home made job at rebuild, it is too wide (measured this and sure enough) and will not fit or mate in the indentation of the Tcase (look at the 3rd pic of the Tcase). When they installed the Tcase to the tranny, the sides look mated but this plate kept it from sealing properly allowing the gear oil to leak from the no gasket section. :ranting: They advise I was fortunate not to run out of oil on a long drive burning up the T84. It was a good thing I was checking and topping off the gear oil.
Posted Image Posted Image
El Niño
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
"Speak not Evil of the absent for it is unjust." George Washington, Rule 89 of Civility and Decent Behavior.
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#16 User is offline   DanStew 

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 09:09 PM

I am sure you probably did it, but make sure you do not get RTV or the gasket to cover the hoels on the bottom that allow the oil to be shared between the Tranny adn Tcase. If they are blocked the oil will run out of the tranny and into the Tcase and the tranny can burn up.
Dan Stewart
1963 CJ5 "School Bus"
1988.5 Suzuki Samurai

#17 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 12 January 2006 - 10:25 PM

Dan,

I think it's a bit different with the t84j, there are no holes to cover up on the tranny. The oil migration from the t84 to the spicer18 is prevented by two seals inside the tranny on the main bearing shaft. It will still allow a slight amount in and out traveling along the bearing shaft. I don't like to overfill these old girls and check them periodically.

I've ordered some parts so I'm kind of stopped with the Tcase but I have enough to do on other parts of the Willys while waiting. I know now how you guys feel with these old ripe and vintage girls. :cool1:
Posted Image Posted Image
El Niño
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
"Speak not Evil of the absent for it is unjust." George Washington, Rule 89 of Civility and Decent Behavior.
Wheeling Gallery ----- E-Mail
Life Member: South Florida Jeep Club

#18 User is offline   DanStew 

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 11:02 PM

Yup, they are fun to mess with. Given I dont have anything really stock from mine. But i do have a Dana 18 sitting on my shelf for a later poroject if it comes up :cool1:
Dan Stewart
1963 CJ5 "School Bus"
1988.5 Suzuki Samurai

#19 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 01 February 2006 - 08:58 AM

Well the Willys is up and running great! :whistle:

Solved my major puddle problem with the gear oil leak and also took down the oil pan since I was dripping a drop or two of oil on every bolt of the pan & replaced a double rubber wall rear pinion seal. :tongue1:

It was not only a mating issue but the interlock plate (small plate with center hole that connects the two shafts below the main bearing shaft, see pic) was a home made job, too large and it would not fit in the indentation of the Tcase not allowing it to mate properly in the middle. :ranting:

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Checking a few things with the mating of the tranny and Tcase there was a 20mm difference in gap so I decided to use a new thin rubber gasket with my gasket maker on both sides. The sump gasket was made out of cork so I did not use it, only the gasket maker. After a test drive there were no leaks at all. :biggrin1: There were a few parts of the Tcase that were sweating at the yoke joints but did not want to mess with rebuilding the entire tcase since this was not a leak.

I don't know why I did not follow my gut feeling but I installed the oil pan with the cork gasket and my gasket maker. After the test drive I had the same oil drips I did before. Those of you who like to use the cork gasket with a bit of gasket maker I will not be joining your club. :amazed:

I took down the pan one more time, cleaned it, got rid of the cork gasket and only use my Permatex RTV silicone gasket maker. After the test drive up to temperature all was dry. :shock:

Check out my cleaned up and re painted oil pan.

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I took some pictures of the engine block looking up so you can see the crank shaft, pistons, etc. :whistle:

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In the next picture notice how this section of the block comes out and actually makes the continuation of the engine block. This section is where the rear main seal is housed. :naughty:

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I took it down and replace the bottom of the rear main seal. I did not want to replace the top because I would have to take down the crank shaft. Rollbar showed me a trick for taking out the top half of the seal which if I have a problem in the future I will try next time before removing the crank shaft. I'm going to let him explain this on this thread which I thought was a good tech trick. :cry1:

This is what a new (left) old (right) rear main looks like, notice also the rubber dowels which is supposed to go where the red dots appear in the previous picture.

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I spoke to several guys that work on these engines and they explained that these dowels are supposed to seal the crack of the block preventing oil leakage. They advised that it does not work 50% of the time. I took their advise and pressure shot my gasket maker instead of using the rubber dowels. Notice how it also filled in the cracks on the previous picture. I also used Super 300 (recommended by Rollbar) to coat the seal and mate the steel wall. It is black in color and you can also see it on the picture. Super 300 is a type of gasket maker that stays soft while remaining sticky, I tested this before I used it and it works excellent.

The next picture if from inside the tub, you can see the T84J and Bell housing. This has a story of it's own. :amazed:

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When I took off the Tcase I disconnected the clutch cable from the clutch tube (pictured on a prior post on this thread), I was supposed to keep tension on this cable so it would not disconnect from clutch fork inside the Bell housing. Guess what, completely forgot about it when I was installing the Tcase, must have pushed on the cable and it disconnected from the fork inside the Bell housing. I looked through the hole but could not find the fork to connect to.

Reading the manual I was going ballistic because it said that I needed to separate the engine or tranny from Bell housing to get at it. :biggrin1: Luckily there was a local person that works on these old girls that I met a few weeks ago, called him and asked if there was an easier way. He advised me of a trick that has worked for him in the passed but not all of the time. Bring on the trick and hope it works! If you look at the above picture where it shows tranny and Bell housing, there is (what looks like) a plate on top of the Bell, that is an access door to expose the clutch, fork, etc. He told me to look inside and see if the fork was still connected and it's location, it was still connected but pushed forward, stuck my hand inside, pushed it back, went underneath and saw it though the hole and was able to connect the cable to the clutch. Thank you for access doors! :2thumup:

Re painted and installed the Tcase shifters and the old girl was good to go!

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Here is the old girl cracking up and getting ready for action.
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El Niño
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
"Speak not Evil of the absent for it is unjust." George Washington, Rule 89 of Civility and Decent Behavior.
Wheeling Gallery ----- E-Mail
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#20 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 06:03 PM

Excellent write up & pics.

Thanks for the info,
RollBar

P.S. I charge $ for Vintage tips-n-tricks. :sneak: :whistle: :whistle:
*MY CJ IS YOUR yJ's DADDY*

*Who Needs A Stinking Manual When You Have A Fat Wallet For Tech Support!*

*What man is a man who does not make the world better*

Support the Central Florida Bible Camp for kids

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