Truing, NDTires, Old Axles
#1
Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:42 AM
First let me say that I don't know if this problem had to do with the tires (very unlikely) or the actual 60 year old axle that might have minor warp drums, bent somewhere or any other possible unknown reason.
I remember when I first purchased the Willys a few years back, it used to shake while traveling down the road around 30 mph. The 30 caliber machine gun was a very good indication of this. The first step I took was to re balance the combat rims all around. This did not take care of the problem (Sears money down the drain). While speaking with a few of the local guys that own military vehicles about this problem, they advised that the tires are probably out of round a bit, so even though they were balanced they would not do well from what I explained in paragraph #2.
They suggested to take them to a tire place and have them True. True is a procedure that shaves a small amount of rubber of the tire making them evenly round while on the rim, they then balance the rim with tire. There were only 2 places in two counties that I found that had the machining do this old procedure. They charged $20 a wheel.
I placed the Willys on jacks, took off the 4 wheels & headed over to OK Tires (be advised that there is only one location that does this procedure even though there are many stores). As I arrived I enjoyed speaking with with an older and knowledgeable tire tech that had been in the tire business since the 1950s. He would make fun how the art of true balancing was only known to a few. Museum vehicles would bring all their vehicles to him. I guess this gave me a bit of confidence on what Ronny was telling me on what/why was happening with my problem and how to correct it.
Ronny proceeded to True the tires while I was getting a lesson at the same time. The first thing that was done was to warm up the tire rubber. He placed them on this machine that had rollers, it would spin them while applying a small amount of pressure as if they were running on the payment. Once Ronny felt they were warm enough he would take them over to the cutter. It was fascinating to see how he aligned the blades, took measurements and preceded to manually work the machine. The rubber would fall to the floor, it seemed that he was taken half my tire down from all the rubber, it was really not more than 1/16. I thanked him, told me to call him if I had any problems, he was willing to bet me that I would not call.
Got home, installed the tires, went for a drive... they were perfect, only a tiny movement around 40mph in which he stated that after a few miles it would be gone as the tire would wear to the mating surface and drum circumference, he was also correct. I now can take the drive at stellar speeds of 50mph without a problem on the Willys.
Here is what I found out after 1500 miles later when I went to adjust the brakes this past week. I was told not to rotate tires, wear them out, get new ones, tire rotation was not in the manual back then. Took off the tires to adjust the brakes, (had a gut feeling about marking the lug nut to wheel, did not think I had to. After the brake adjustment I went for a ride and at around 30mph, the Willys felt like it was going to come apart with wobbling and vibration. Hmmmm, I knew I was in for extra work. Called Ronny after two years (he was still there), he told me that I should have followed my gut feeling and marked the lug nut. I had two choices, True the tires again or save $80 by lifting up the left side of Willys, adjust, bring down the left and proceed to right side (while on jacks). I ran the wheels on each bolt pattern (5) and choosing the one lug that showed the least wobbling. Ronny advised to take it until the speedometer showed 20mph which was equivalent to around 40mph on the road.
Took me an hour, it worked and the Willys drives just like before. What is the moral of the story......
I would like to know from some of you that are using NDT tires the type of vehicle you installed these in and if you had any problems with rotation or balancing them. I believe that my problem with the tires have to do with my original old axles and the explanation I give on Paragraph #2.
El Niņo
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
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#2
Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:48 PM
Is this true w/the NDT tires on a later model Jeep (mine) or do U have to mark any & every NDT tire U take off? Can U ask Ronnie.
Jim
'48 Willys; '74CJ5; '80CJ7; '84 CJ8; '86 CJ7
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#3
Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:42 PM
I don't know if Ronny can actually answer this question without seeing the tire & rim. Looking at the Dana Spicer 23 axle and all it's components I can see that the actual pressed drums & front knuckle set up can play an important in wearing a tire out in a special manner.
I think a call to Cocker is in order being the manufacturer of the tire to see what they say. I don't think that your CJ axle drive train setup would play an important part like my old axle but if these new tires are shipped true round and you install them after they are balanced they should be ok. The question will come in if you can rotate them. If Cocker tells you not to rotate them than I would also mark lug nut to tire before they come off the Jeep. You can try an experiment and see if you notice any difference while mounting the tire on another wheel or opposite lug nut (make sure you mark them so you can reverse the process). Let us know what Cocker tell you.
I would like to hear from the Major if he had any problems mounting and balancing for the first time. Even if he did not it could also be very forgiving for the later model vehicles if they were not a perfect round vs 60 year old technology.
El Niņo
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...
There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
"Speak not Evil of the absent for it is unjust." George Washington, Rule 89 of Civility and Decent Behavior.
Wheeling Gallery ----- E-Mail
Life Member: South Florida Jeep Club
#4
Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:01 PM
RollBar
'48 Willys; '74CJ5; '80CJ7; '84 CJ8; '86 CJ7
*Who Needs A Stinking Manual When You Have A Fat Wallet For Tech Support!*
*What man is a man who does not make the world better*
Support the Central Florida Bible Camp for kids
#5
Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:06 PM
If you don't fight for the trails, there won't be any trails to fight for.
What you get by achieving your goals is not as important as what you become by achieving your goals.
Zig Ziglar
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." ....
John Stuart Mill
#6
Posted 04 January 2006 - 01:03 AM
#7
Posted 04 January 2006 - 08:28 AM
JeepinIan, on Jan 3 2006, 11:06 PM, said:
Yep. I just think our newer axle technology is more able to handle it as long as you can bring the balance close (notice I say close).
Major, glad they are working out for you. You mention speeds of 55mph, is this the max they are rated for? As they wear, come back and let us know if you were able to rotate or if a change in lug made any difference. These NDT tires are different to work with from what we are used to.
El Niņo
Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...
There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 9th Commandment.
"Speak not Evil of the absent for it is unjust." George Washington, Rule 89 of Civility and Decent Behavior.
Wheeling Gallery ----- E-Mail
Life Member: South Florida Jeep Club
#8
Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:37 PM
#9
Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:58 PM
TheMajor, on Jan 4 2006, 05:37 PM, said:
That's good cause I was starting to wonder if I should get them but I see now it would be no problem.
Thanks,
'48 Willys; '74CJ5; '80CJ7; '84 CJ8; '86 CJ7
*Who Needs A Stinking Manual When You Have A Fat Wallet For Tech Support!*
*What man is a man who does not make the world better*
Support the Central Florida Bible Camp for kids