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Truing, NDTires, Old Axles

#1 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:42 AM

For those of you that have or are considering purchasing Military NDT tires I found out a few things while working on the Willys this past week adjusting the brakes and having to remove the wheels.

First let me say that I don't know if this problem had to do with the tires (very unlikely) or the actual 60 year old axle that might have minor warp drums, bent somewhere or any other possible unknown reason. :ya:

I remember when I first purchased the Willys a few years back, it used to shake while traveling down the road around 30 mph. The 30 caliber machine gun was a very good indication of this. The first step I took was to re balance the combat rims all around. This did not take care of the problem (Sears money down the drain). While speaking with a few of the local guys that own military vehicles about this problem, they advised that the tires are probably out of round a bit, so even though they were balanced they would not do well from what I explained in paragraph #2.

They suggested to take them to a tire place and have them True. True is a procedure that shaves a small amount of rubber of the tire making them evenly round while on the rim, they then balance the rim with tire. There were only 2 places in two counties that I found that had the machining do this old procedure. :lol: They charged $20 a wheel.

I placed the Willys on jacks, took off the 4 wheels & headed over to OK Tires (be advised that there is only one location that does this procedure even though there are many stores). As I arrived I enjoyed speaking with with an older and knowledgeable tire tech that had been in the tire business since the 1950s. He would make fun how the art of true balancing was only known to a few. Museum vehicles would bring all their vehicles to him. I guess this gave me a bit of confidence on what Ronny was telling me on what/why was happening with my problem and how to correct it. :lol:

Ronny proceeded to True the tires while I was getting a lesson at the same time. :ya: The first thing that was done was to warm up the tire rubber. He placed them on this machine that had rollers, it would spin them while applying a small amount of pressure as if they were running on the payment. Once Ronny felt they were warm enough he would take them over to the cutter. It was fascinating to see how he aligned the blades, took measurements and preceded to manually work the machine. The rubber would fall to the floor, it seemed that he was taken half my tire down from all the rubber, it was really not more than 1/16. I thanked him, told me to call him if I had any problems, he was willing to bet me that I would not call.

Got home, installed the tires, went for a drive... they were perfect, :) only a tiny movement around 40mph in which he stated that after a few miles it would be gone as the tire would wear to the mating surface and drum circumference, he was also correct. I now can take the drive at stellar speeds of 50mph without a problem on the Willys.

Here is what I found out after 1500 miles later when I went to adjust the brakes this past week. I was told not to rotate tires, wear them out, get new ones, tire rotation was not in the manual back then. Took off the tires to adjust the brakes, (had a gut feeling about marking the lug nut to wheel, did not think I had to. After the brake adjustment I went for a ride and at around 30mph, the Willys felt like it was going to come apart with wobbling and vibration. :cry: Hmmmm, :1baby: I knew I was in for extra work. Called Ronny after two years (he was still there), he told me that I should have followed my gut feeling and marked the lug nut. I had two choices, True the tires again or save $80 by lifting up the left side of Willys, adjust, bring down the left and proceed to right side (while on jacks). I ran the wheels on each bolt pattern (5) and choosing the one lug that showed the least wobbling. Ronny advised to take it until the speedometer showed 20mph which was equivalent to around 40mph on the road. :nerd:

Took me an hour, it worked and the Willys drives just like before. What is the moral of the story...... :cry: :lol: :cry: :)

I would like to know from some of you that are using NDT tires the type of vehicle you installed these in and if you had any problems with rotation or balancing them. :wub: I believe that my problem with the tires have to do with my original old axles and the explanation I give on Paragraph #2.
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#2 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:48 PM

Boy, U just saved me allot of headaches.

Is this true w/the NDT tires on a later model Jeep (mine) or do U have to mark any & every NDT tire U take off? Can U ask Ronnie.

Jim
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#3 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:42 PM

Rollbar,

I don't know if Ronny can actually answer this question without seeing the tire & rim. Looking at the Dana Spicer 23 axle and all it's components I can see that the actual pressed drums & front knuckle set up can play an important in wearing a tire out in a special manner.

I think a call to Cocker is in order being the manufacturer of the tire to see what they say. I don't think that your CJ axle drive train setup would play an important part like my old axle but if these new tires are shipped true round and you install them after they are balanced they should be ok. The question will come in if you can rotate them. If Cocker tells you not to rotate them than I would also mark lug nut to tire before they come off the Jeep. You can try an experiment and see if you notice any difference while mounting the tire on another wheel or opposite lug nut (make sure you mark them so you can reverse the process). Let us know what Cocker tell you.

I would like to hear from the Major if he had any problems mounting and balancing for the first time. Even if he did not it could also be very forgiving for the later model vehicles if they were not a perfect round vs 60 year old technology.
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#4 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:01 PM

I don't rotate my Jeep tires anyway, I usually go 3 sets on the back to two on the front, meaning Iwear out two fronts to three backs even w/a alignment. I 'll ask if I take the tire off will I still have to mark the lug.

RollBar
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#5 User is offline   JeepinIan 

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:06 PM

Believe it or not, almost all tires larger than 35's are not true. take em in & see for yourself.
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#6 User is offline   TheMajor 

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 01:03 AM

NTB mounted and balanced mine, no problems, Max speed for me is 55 MPH, I cruse at 45 MPH. I have no problems at all except for the pushrod problem today. I run modern stock size wheels with no tubes as 35 PSI. The more I drive them the more I like them. The tire hum relaxes me. I have noticed more pull / drift from the rear locker when shifting up, but that is all. :question:

#7 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 04 January 2006 - 08:28 AM

JeepinIan, on Jan 3 2006, 11:06 PM, said:

Believe it or not, almost all tires larger than 35's are not true. take em in & see for yourself.

Yep. :question: I just think our newer axle technology is more able to handle it as long as you can bring the balance close (notice I say close). :question:

Major, glad they are working out for you. You mention speeds of 55mph, is this the max they are rated for? As they wear, come back and let us know if you were able to rotate or if a change in lug made any difference. These NDT tires are different to work with from what we are used to.
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Experience is defined as something you get, after you need it.
Give the world the best you have. The best will come back to you...

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#8 User is offline   TheMajor 

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:37 PM

If I member correctly the letter rating = 112 mph max

#9 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 05:58 PM

TheMajor, on Jan 4 2006, 05:37 PM, said:

If I member correctly the letter rating = 112 mph max

That's good cause I was starting to wonder if I should get them but I see now it would be no problem.

Thanks,
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*Who Needs A Stinking Manual When You Have A Fat Wallet For Tech Support!*

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