[allmyt1]

Does anyone have a place to order Authentic WWII Paint? Or at least the shade colors? I am going to need to order it soon if I want to paint while I am on vacation for New Years...

[Jim B]

There are different shades of Olive Drab... let's just say that this had driven me insane at one time.

You will find Olive Drab shades from WWII all the way to Vietnam to Present. The later shades have more of a darker brown tone to them.

WWII had really two shades with a third that was really late and most restoration projects are using now. Personally I don't like it because it is has more of a darker orange tone to it. Since I'm a purist when it comes to this subject I choose to go with the right year and color for my Willys which turned out the best shade that I liked anyway.

You will have to make your own choice for what you like as you can pretty much choose any tone you wish. What I like about Olive Drab is the way it blends when you need to touch up something, with a small spray can you can pretty much touch up anything and no one will know that it was not the original paint. Get yourself a gallon if you are going to do that entire vehicle. At the same time get yourself a couple of spray cans for those days that you come back from the trail.

If you want to stick with WWII shades here are your choices:

Early War, 1941, 1942, early 1943: Shade 33070. You've seen this, it's on my Willys. It is neither a light or very dark Olive Drab.

Late War, Mid to end of 1943 to 1945. Shade 319. Very light mustard color Olive Drab.

Really Late War, end of 1945 plus what most restorations use. Dark orange brownish tone Olive Drab.

Only two companies make it, the best of the two in my opinion is Gillespie, they have every color shade of Olive Drab you can imagine that can drive you crazy. Btw Vietnam to present is more of a shiny dark Olive Drab even though it is still lusterless.

You will be able to do this pretty much yourself because you can not screw up Lusterless Olive Drab. Make sure you put down a good primer and clean off the old stuff real good. I really would enjoy seeing the outcome. Later on I will turn you on t the guy who makes up the Stencil Markings with the Invasion Star, etc. There is one member who is doing this to his TJ Willys addition now, don't want to mention any names but maybe he can post up a few pics, it look awesome.


Here is the link for Rapco with pricing, color shade numbers for every shade of Olive Drab & year you can possible think of. They sell the Gillespie Paint. Hope this helps you out.

Rapco Olive Drab Distributor.

[allmyt1]

Thanks Jim, How did I know you were the man to ask I am placing the order tomorrow... If you do get some free time, please post the stencil guys information.

[Jim B]

allmyt1, on Dec 23 2004, 05:55 PM, said:

If you do get some free time, please post the stencil guys information.

Oh boy, oh boy... now he want the markings on it. Is it not amazing how we get carried away & love to be in the poor house. I had a feeling you were going to ask me a bit early. :1party: You just want all of this laying around for when it's time... just like my tube fenders.

Ok, here is the info. The guy's name is Rick Larsen, he does just about all the military stenciling for everyone, except for the guys who want to do it themselves. After time spent and headaches involved, they all say at the end that they would have been better off buying the stencils from Rick.

Military Stencils.

He has both the sticker kind and the ones you paint on for permanent, I will tell you what kind of white paint you will need if you plan to paint them on. The sets are cheaper if you buy the star (or invasion star), hood side numbers, front & back bumper markings with side small stars. You will see this info on his page. Depending on which bumper you wind up with, you might not be able to get any markings on it. I can imagine what you are thinking and how it will all look when your done. You just better be taking pics of each step and posting them on here.

Btw, if you want to get an idea on the markings you can take a look at my Willys as it was being born right before I added the paint on markings and what the end result looked liked. You can get a basic idea where it all goes as there are finished pictures. 1942 Willys Restoration.

Now.... here is the problem. You know you are going to have to get rid off those square ugly looking headlight and get the round kit that they sell for the YJ if you do this.

Just kidding, it will still look ok, it's got the Jeep grill on it... maybe. I think I'm about to start a square round conflict.

[allmyt1]

Are you sure you were not putting you fenders on last night and hit your head or something Those square lights are what disginushes a good Jeep from a bad Jeep. 1995 will always be known as the last year of the GOOD Jeep!!!

J/K.....

Thanks for the info Jim. I am one of those people that likes to plan ahead and have everything layed out in my garage so I can make a mental picture of the finished project :1grin:

[Jim B]

Rapco Parts have their new Web site up. They are still working with it but the new link seems to be working. They are not identifying the paints by year like before but I'm sure they will get there. I was not aware of this but they seem to also sell Vintage parts along with their paints.

Rapco Parts

I found some interesting information with regards to the Oxide red primer they sell. They actually formulated this to go with their Gilespy paints as most over the counter metal primers would only have zinc which will also need Oxide to adhere to older metals and their OD paints. Could be all hot air but it convinced me.

I was running low on my 33070 OD shade, ordered 2cans and also ordered a can of the primer. I'm holding off on the shovel restore until I get this.

[Rollbar]

UPS just came & dropped off my two test cans for the M170 project (OD Color 23070 & 24087). I'll post pics later but now I'm driving to GA.

Talk to Mark Dodd he know's exactly what u need for what yr.

(904) 872-2403
Bowie, Tx

RollBar

P.S. I ordered the two cans Friday b-4 x-mas & I got them about two hours ago.

P.S.S. I'll be on my laptop later, POSt some pics.

[allmyt1]

If anyone is interested, I still have 7 1/2 gallons of paint left over from my project (dont ask). It is the lusterlous Olive drab (pre-1943).
If anyone is interested in buying some, let me know. I am not sure what the shipping will be, I think it needs to be shipped as hazardous materials. If anyone is interested, let me know and I will find out the details.

Allen

[Jim B]

allmyt1, on Jan 1 2006, 11:26 PM, said:

If anyone is interested, I still have 7 1/2 gallons of paint left over from my project (dont ask).

I don't need this much but if you were closer I would buy a gallon of you and see if there was a place to fill the paint into cans around here. But by the time everything is said and done it might cost more than $6 a spray can.

I will not ask how you got 7 1/2 gallons left from your project.

[Rollbar]

Rollbar, on Dec 30 2005, 02:27 PM, said:

UPS just came & dropped off my two test cans for the M170 project  (OD Color 23070 & 24087).  I'll post pics later but now I'm driving to GA.

Talk to Mark Dodd he know's exactly what u need for what yr.

(904) 872-2403
Bowie, Tx

RollBar

P.S. I ordered the two cans Friday b-4 x-mas & I got them about two hours ago.

P.S.S. I'll be on my laptop later, POSt some pics.

O.K. Here's the paint swatches. On the left is Number-23070 & on the right is 24087. Note: These are the only two colors for the Korean era.
P.S. the Brown can is for sale, $4.50 + shipping, I paid 6 bucks a can + shipping & I only used this small test area U see.








This Pics is just after spraying.

[Jim B]

Rollbar, on Jan 3 2006, 03:47 PM, said:

P.S. the Brown can is for sale, $4.50 +

I'm glad you decided to sell the brown. However, I might be wrong but don't overlook to break up the color on some inside items, tools, etc with the brown. It might actually look ok. I did it with the natural wood but I still like most things OD. It's a fever.

[Rollbar]

Jim B, on Jan 3 2006, 09:30 PM, said:

OD. It's a fever.

I know, I was just simmering until "U" through my lighter fluid on the fire. :sneak:

[TheMajor]

Quit whining and go ahead a do a camo job on it!!!!

[Rollbar]

I use to paint cars when I was younger but things have changed & I never shot a vehicle w/OD. I'm gonna order a gallon of the OD paint (23070) & some touch-up cans. I have a couple of questions.

1. Do I have to mix the OD?
2. Can I shoot it right out of the gallon & just add fish-eye?
3. What base primer should I use?

Thanks,
RollBar

[Jim B]

Quote

1. Do I have to mix the OD?

As far as I know, NO. Allmyt1 might be able to answer better since he used gallon cans.

Quote

2. Can I shoot it right out of the gallon & just add fish-eye?

Never heard of the term fish-eye, is that a painter term If you have a paint gun and don't have to mix it jut suck it out of the can.

Quote

3. What base primer should I use?

Ok, you and I were discussing this at one time. I bought the Home Depot can to use on the shovel that I was restoring. I just got a can of the Red Oxide from Rapco. I don't know if it is in my head but I noticed that the one from Rapco adhere to the metal a bit better and was not as soft. I still have to shoot it with the paint and I will let you know. I'm returning the can from Home Depot. Btw, don't ask me why I had to re-prime the shovel.

You might also want to ask Rapco these questions and let us know what they tell you regarding their gallon paint.

[Jack H]

Quote

Never heard of the term fish-eye, is that a painter term

Jim, fish-eye killer prevents "fish-eye" while painting. Fish-eye is where silicon wax has not been fully removed from the surface to be painted and the new paint does not want to adhere to it. It appears to look like a fish-eye.

[JeepinIan]

FYI, check out Olive Drab for paint, patterns, etc.

[Rollbar]

Here's what I found out.


1. Yes, you will have to mix the OD with Xylene to thin it. It is extremely thick stuff and if you dont thin it, you'll have a heck of a time spraying it. Typically thin it about 20% Xylene (Rapco suggestion) 85% paint. Some people go all the way up to 2:1 ratios, but thats like spraying water.

2. POR-15 (www.por15.com). About 100$ a gallon. POR15 isn't epoxy based either. AND moisture actually makes it cure.

3. Spray POR15, then Red Oxide, then 2 shots of OD.

4. Thin the Gillespie with DuPont's Nason line of Reducer. Depending on the weather conditions either the Fast, Medium or Slow evaporation rate. This reducer best allows you to control the drying rate of the paint.

5. Xylene dries too fast and won't allow the paint to flow out and will leave a "grainy" feel to it.

[Rollbar]

Hummmmm,
Just found some info on modern paint as opposed to the original OD/Military paint & people trying to match the newer paint to the OD.

From the "G".

Hope this helps,
Please understand this: WW2 paints used a tremendous amount of "flatteners" that in themselves have a great effect on how a paint performs. The flattener that PPG uses in their modern paint is nothing like the stuff used in 50 year ago enamels, and if you expect to attempt to match up the look of the original paint Willys used years ago, with the performance of modern catalyzed paint, such as PPG, Dupont, Matrix or whatever anyone else makes currently, 2 things will happen: first, you'll spend a lot time & money trying to get your local paint dealer to "match" what the WW2/Korean war paint (like Gillespie's 23070) looked like, together with the superior qualities of modern paints- and second, when you finally spray it out on the tub. etc. you're going to be disappointed. Paint shops generally don't spray out large samples (they usually dip or brush them on, which affects the degree of flatness) , so what they show you from a small sample mix and what you spray out probably won't be the same at all.

A number of guys have reported being happy with results of having PPG paint or whatever, but from what I've seen, the final color is WAY too glossy, never mind the color match. Now if that's what you want, fine. But from my experience you can have a good color match that's glossy, or a flatter match, by using very little hardener (that's not a very tough paint), but not both.

Take your choice: either go with paint that mimics well the appearance of older enamel paint, like Gillespie's, or the toughness of modern paint- whether it's acrylic urethane or polyurethane or whatever, but not both qualities in the same paint. This comes to mind...

posted at NASA:
FASTER
BETTER
CHEAPER

beneath which was written (by hand)
"pick any two".

Rewritten with semigloss paint in mind, it might be something like
FLAT/SEMIGLOSS
DURABLE
AVAILABLE

and again,
"pick any two".

I cannot emphasize enough the idea that it is the preparation of the surface and priming it, not the topcoat (colorcoat) that makes the real difference in paint. Prepare the surface well, then prime it well, and no matter what topcoat you choose (properly applied) you'll be happy.

FAIL to do the above, and again, no matter WHAT topcoat you use, you won't be happy. Period.

[TheMajor]

Go ahead and ruin everybodys day, Thats what your here for!

[Rollbar]

TheMajor, on Jan 6 2006, 11:04 PM, said:

Go ahead and ruin everybodys day, Thats what your here for! :whistle:

I just copied it from the "G" to pass on the paint info.

[Jim B]

Jack, thanks for explaining the fish eye.

Ian, the OliveDrab site is an awesome information site, I've been visiting this site for over two years to get correct info along with the G503.

Rollbar,
Nice info on the POR15, Oxide primer and Gillespie OD.

I've used POR15 but keep in mind they make different kinds for intended use. If your CJ8 is rusted a bit or showing signs, reinforce and use the POR15. If your metal is clean a good coat of the Red Oxide primer should do I would think. These guys at Rapco sure know their stuff. Largest manufacturer with guys that have done it.

[Rollbar]

Thanks Jim, just so I get this right, the Por-15 will stop the rust, correct. I just paint on a sanded down rust spot (realizing U can't get all of it) & it's done & will not come back, correct.

Do I just use the Por-15 or do I have to use something first that the Por will react to?

Thanks, cause I do have some holes under the Jeep label on the sides etc.

RollBar

[Jim B]

Quote

so I get this right, the Por-15 will stop the rust, correct.

Yes.

Quote

I just paint it on a sanded down rust spot (realizing U can't get all of it) & it's done & will not come back, correct.

Yes, but it is to my understanding that you don't actually clean off too much of the rust as it needs the rust to act. I used it this way on a part of my car trailer.

Quote

Do I just use the Por-15 or do I have to use something first that the Por will react to?

They sell POR pre cleaners but that is to get more of your money. If you read the can it will tell you that it will not work on a clean spot, it needs the rust to act. Don't use it on the entire vehicle, just the problem spots.

Quote

Thanks, cause I do have some holes under the Jeep label on the sides etc. RollBar

It will not fill your holes.

[Rollbar]

O.K., I'll put it on & then mig some metal on the sides etc. thanks.

[Rollbar]

One, maybe two more paint questions B-4 I start on the fenders, hood, grill & tub.
1. Can I mix the gallon of paint w/the Xylene & leave it or will it evaporate?
2. What I want to do is mix the whole gallon & use it in the Qt. sprayer when I need it.

Mathamatican needed. It takes 28oz. of Xylene per gallon to be @ 20%, how much in ounces do I use for a Qt. If it takes 20oz per gallon then it would take 5% per Qt. correct. So 5% = how many ounce?

Thanks,
RollBar

[Jim B]

Rollbar, on Jan 28 2006, 05:59 PM, said:

Mathamatican needed.  It takes 28oz. of Xylene per gallon to be @ 20%, how much in ounces do I use for a Qt.  If it takes 20oz per gallon then it would take 5% per Qt. correct.  So 5% = how many ounce?

I'm not going to give you the answer Grasshopper, however I will guide your ways.

Best Online Conversion I've ever seen.

Online Conversion... All of them.

With regards to the rest of your question, I have no experience whatsoever and if you want a straight answer you should call Rapco Monday morning and come back and let us know what they say.

[Rollbar]

Oh, thank you Grand Master.

[SoilantGreen]

OK, this thread has been an interesting read.

I sell PPG industrial paint out of a small chain of automotive paint stores. PPG made most of the mil-spec paint back in the day, as the kids say. That being said, there are still formulas for all of the old colors, you just need to know the PPG paint code number. (That's the hard part.) Most of the companies that supply the military vehicle hobby are selling a version of the Federal Standard color (sometimes labeled Fed Std 595). For instance one of the three correct OD colors for WWII is 33070. In the Federal Standard color system, lusterless paints begin with a "3". The Fed Std 595-B 24087 is the semi gloss OD for army vehicles from the Korean conflict through the Viet-Nam era. Color is the easy part. It's just a matter of picking the one you want, assuming that you don't want the original (or know what it was). The sheens are a matter of controversy, since every motor pool performed re-paints differently. Many simply thinned the paint by mixing it with an equal part of gasoline (Do NOT ever attempt this--especially if you smoke while painting!) Thinners tend to change the gloss level. Fast drying thinners (or lower quality ones, like a lacquer thinner purchased from the big orange box store) tend to "ruin" sheens by lowering them. Slower thinners will allow more "open" time meaning that the paint is kept wet, allowing you to get around the vehicle and spray your newest stuff alongside of where you started while getting a clean blend.

Fish Eye remover is a bad idea. Contaminants, like wax and grease, cause fish eyes that are a result of lower surface tension in the paint directly above the contamination. Fish Eye remover is actually just more silicone. So to avoid the look of a contaminated surface, you must completely contaminate the paint. Why not use a good wax and grease remover and clean the vehicle prior to painting it? You'll be a lot happier with the finished job.

Flatteners, it is true, are a problematic area. The flatteners used in the industrial paint that I sell tend to work consistently from can to can. Automotive grade flatteners in automotive paints are more effected by humidity and temperature.

Spray cans are available for under $6 a can. They are best made from the gallon of paint that you buy for your "over-all" job. This way, you get the exact paint in spray cans that you are going to be painting with. Touch up will be easier this way, since cans purchased after the fact from a different lot will ALWAYS look slightly different.

We have matched several of the proper colors for military vehicles and supply them in an acrylic modified alkyd enamel. This simply means that it is a better air-drying (or lacquer type) paint than a non-acrylic. The acrylic actually adds durability. I'm always amazed when the members of the military vehicle club that I belong to would rather paint with an old school, 50 year old technology on a vehicle that they've put so much blood, sweat, and tears into. They must like re-painting a lot!

Keep in mind that almost any mil-spec paint job can be claimed to be correct. The WWII jeeps used three different colors for the army alone. Add in the Gloss Navy gray and the Marine Corps forest green and you've got some options. Don't forget that Ford built GPWs at about ten different plants. Does anyone really believe that it would be possible to keep the colors consistent among all of these plants? Besides, once put into service, the Willys MB or Ford GPW had a life expectancy of about 90 days, so "correctness" was not uppermost in the minds of the builders. I've heard that unit commanders "ordered" the head of the motor pool to add "a little black paint" to the paint going on his personal vehicle to aid him in finding it amongst several others, thus avoiding embarassment in front of the troops. My own military vehicle, a 62 M422A1 Mighty Mite, has a coating on it somewhere between flat and semi gloss. Old marines (the service branch for whom the Mite was built) will still insist that flat on these was meant for forward combat areas and s/g was for rear "safe" areas.

I hope some of this helps. I'm willing to help anybody with their military vehicle coatings questions. Call me at Ben's Paint Supply 407.428.0140.

[TheMajor]

Excellent Info
Thanks