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I-6 Ignition Upgrade & CRT/HEI cam gear discussion

#1 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:28 PM

PARTS LIST, Advance Auto,

Blue Streak Premium Brass Terminal Distributor Cap & Rotor p/n KCR 202X

Distributor Cap Adapter p/n C193AP = $6.15 w/tax

Decide on CANISTER COIL or E-core coil.

Suggestion is to use your FACTORY STYLE COIL

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHANGE COILS OR BUY A NEW COIL.

Some people upgrade to an MSD factory style coil (Blaster 2F)
OR,
They use a Ford E-core coil, or an MSD E-core coil.
(Ford, junk yard for about $5. Don't forget to get the coil bracket and coil electrical connector plug if you do!
MSD coil p/n 8227

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku

IF you do not have a bracket here is one you can make.
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Here it is mounted along with the cap/base.
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If you buy a new coil, you will need to fabricate a bracket,
AND,
You will need to purchase a coil connector,
NAPA p/n ICC1, $15.

PLUG WIRES,
Factory Ignition Coil, Autolite p/n 96171

E-core coil, Autolite p/n 96624

NEW PREMIUM PLUGS FOR YOUR YEAR/ENGINE.
All years are different, so I can't give specific part numbers for all variations, altitudes, ect.

Suggestion is to use Autolite or Denso, and gap to 0.045" regardless of the engine you have or what the book says.

Tube of 'Never-Seize'.

Tube of 'Tune Up Grease' (Dielectric Grease)

Tube of Butyl or Silicone caulking, or Weather Strip Adhesive (optional).

TOOLS.
One medium sized flat blade screwdriver,
One medium sized (#2 Phillips) cross screw driver,
One plug socket and drive tool,
Plug gap checker,
Needle nose pliers.

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This is about what your 'PIG' should look like...
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TAKE NOTE of where the #1 (front) cylinder plug wire is located on the cap, and then mark that location on the distributor base...
(so you can find it again with the new cap!)
This is showing me marking the distributor cap #1 terminal, but you need to MARK THE DISTRIBUTOR HOUSING, not the cap like I'm showing...
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(My mark on the distributor HOUSING wouldn't show up in pictures, so we marked the cap to illustrate that you need to know where #1 plug wires terminal is located RIGHT NOW!)

*IF*, and this is a BIG *IF*...
Your distributor is installed correctly, your #1 terminal mark will be on the housing where the rotor is now pointing. (your rotor will likely be pointing someplace else, but I have this one turned to point at where the #1 plug wire terminal MARK should be for illustration purposes.)
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Start with the DISTRIBUTOR CAP ADAPTER...
That would be the GRAY THING on the RIGHT in this picture...
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I often put some 'butyl' or 'silicone' sealer on the bottom edge of the adapter before it screw it down to the distributor.
This helps keep A BUNCH of water out of the distributor.
Your ignition distributor won't by any means be 'Water Proof', but it WILL help keep a large source of water in the distributor OUT!

Since the adapter doesn't have to be removed very often, you can 'Glue' it down with 'Weather Strip Adhesive' if you want to keep a BUNCH of water out!

I DO NOT use the blue 'RTV' sealer or 'Form-A-Gasket', since they off gas a LOT of acids while curing... ACIDS & Electronics don't get alone well!
....................

Here is what the adapter and new rotor look like installed...
Put a 'Dab' of 'Tune Up Grease' on the rotor NOSE. Just a little 'dab'.
'Tune Up Grease', or Dielectric grease IS NOT never sizes or caulking/sealer!
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Once adapter and rotor are installed, slap the cap on the adapter...
DO NOT forget to put some 'tune up' grease in the groove on the UNDERSIDE of the distributor cap!
(In the groove only.)
This will seal the cap to the adapter and keep one source of water out of the distributor, but still allow you to get the cap off at any time.
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Now, with distributor 'Tune Up' parts in place,
You are ready to do the plugs...

Make sure they are properly gapped,
DO NOT Pry on the center electrode to gap them!
DO NOT bang on the 'Ground' electrode to close up the gap!
Modern 'Resistor' plugs are VERY SENSITIVE!
Use a pair of NEEDLE NOSE pliers to bend the 'Ground' electrode instead of PRYING on the center electrode! That's the WORST thing you can do to a spark plug (Prying on the center electrode or 'Tapping' the gap closed!)

They have a 'Carbon Pile' resistor inside the insulator, and if you break that very fragile carbon, 1/6 of your horsepower and torque goes right out the window!
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IF YOU DROP A PLUG ON THE GROUND, REPLACE IT!
I can't stress this enough!
This is probably the #1 reason for 'Loss Of Power' or 'Poor Economy' complaints after a 'Tune Up'!
People just don't realize how fragile the plugs are!

You don't need a ton of 'Never Seize' on the threads, but you DO need to use it (Copper if you can find it, but zinc is OK if you can't turn it up easily or Copper is too expensive for your project)

PLUG WIRE TIME,
Use AT LEAST Autolite brand plug wires!
The cheap 'Store Brands' or 'Private Label' brands are GARBAGE!
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MSD wires are without question the best wires on the market, but they are $65+ !!!
For a low revving I-6 engine, the Autolite wires should do you fine.

IF you use the stock canister coil you will need this adapter............
The store didn't have the Ford I-6 wires that would have had the correct coil wire,
SO,
We would up with a set for a 4.0L I-6 Jeep, and they worked wonderfully...
EXCEPT!
For the coil wire!

The adapter is a MSD 'Power Tower',
(Silly name for a terminal adapter since it doesn't add any power of any kind...)
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A single is,
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku

and a set of 9 is,
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku

One problem is, you have a plug wire for a coil wire...
This will fix it either way, but generally, since the coil wires have to take a beating from EVERY cylinder fire, I try and use better terminal ends on the coil wire over the plug wires...

You *MIGHT* want to consider this...12.95 + shipping.
MSD p/n 84039
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
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Use a 'Q-Tip' and put a little dab of dielectric grease (Tune Up grease) in each end of each plug boot.
(If you use factory coil, DO NOT grease the coil end of the coil wire, everything with a 'Spark Plug' terminal gets it!)

This will help keep the water from your connections, and that will keep the ignition from grounding out, and it will keep the terminals from corroding.
The grease also keeps the boots from drying out and cracking.

NOW, If you take a CLOSE LOOK, you will see I mark the FIRING ORDER, starting with the #1 plug wire position, on the cap.
this makes things A LOT MORE SIMPLE! (Old racing trick!)
Posted Image

AMC I-6 FIRING ORDER... 1-5-3-6-2-4 CLOCK WISE!
Cylinders are numbered 1-2-3-4-5-6 Front To Back.

SOMETIMES, when I'm doing this upgrade,
I notice the factory coil connector has seen MUCH better days!
The terminals in the connector are shot, the wires are about broke off the terminals from vibration and corrosion, and it's generally in BAD SHAPE!
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These are cheap (around $7) and available from Auto Zone or NAPA.
This one is from Auto Zone...
EASY TO INSTALL, clip the wires to the old one, and use crimp connectors with heat shrink tubing to seal up the splice, and you are DONE!

BAD COIL CONNECTOR is a VERY COMMON PROBLEM, and the cause of that mystery 'No Start' or mystery 'Shut Off' problem so many people experience,
BUT,
Since it's an INTERMITTENT problem, it's VERY hard to trace!
.............................................

Unless you changed the coil to an 'E-core', you are DONE!
That's all there is to it! A simple ignition 'Tune Up' but using PREMIUM PARTS!
..............................................

*IF*, you did change the coil to an 'E-core', you will need a new coil connector.
Clip the wires going to the factory coil connector,
Match up the wires to the E-core coil connector, RED TO RED, Green To Green.

Don't forget mount the coil!
(Yes, I've got every thing done, and test drove, just to get back and find the coil hanging by the wires!)
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WHY YOU ARE DOING THIS UPGRADE, AND WHAT IT'S DOING FOR YOU...

The small cap and short rotor from the factory allow the SPARK ENERGY to bounce around inside the distributor cap like crazy!
If you ever cut a hole in the distributor cap, and run the engine at night so you can see it, those small caps look like a fireworks display!

The spark energy jumping from the coil terminal to the distributor housing is called a 'Ground Fire'.
This means one of your cylinders, 1/3 of the power for that engine revolution, went right out the exhaust pipe without ever contributing!

Using the TALLER ROTOR lifts the spark energy up, away from the housing and distributor shaft, virtually ELIMINATING the ground fire problem.

In fact, you can actually feed MORE spark energy through the taller rotor without fear of ground fires!
It's FREE ENERGY going to your spark plugs instead of going to ground fires where it does you NO good!
.............................

The spark energy jumping to the WRONG terminal at the very least is 1/3 of the power for the RPM going out the exhaust....
IF YOU ARE LUCKY!

You see, if that spark jumped to a cylinder that was on the EXHAUST STROKE, the spark was wasted, and didn't fire the cylinder it was supposed to...

BUT...
IF that spark fires the cylinder AHEAD of the one it's supposed to,
It's firing the cylinder 120 TOO SOON in the firing order!

Think about that for a minute...
3 or 4 too much timing can cause detonation in your engine,
But people ROUTINELY allow 120 TOO MUCH TIMING ADVANCE without doing ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

That's like hitting the piston with a SLEDGE HAMMER and can break pistons, break valves, ruin rods and bearings, and a HOST of other things you don't even want to know about!

The WIDER cap spreads the terminals farther apart, making the CORRECT plug wire terminal the more attractive for the spark energy to jump to!


==================================================


Now, lets talk about the cap material it's self...

Black distributor caps usually use 'Carbon Black'
(Carbon Black = Soot from industrial manufacture, power generation, ect. Common coloring agent for automotive parts like plastic interior parts and tires, distributor caps, ect.)
To color the plastic.

CARBON IS A CONDUCTOR OF ELECTRICITY!

The cap is actually permuting the cross fires and ground fire problems!
If the cap is slick/shiny BLACK plastic, then look for dull, gray 'Carbon Tracks' inside the cap...
They will look like pencil marks or cob webs, just barely visible.
If you find them, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!

The NEXT problem with factory distributor caps is,
They have ALUMINUM TERMINALS.
Aluminum is a fair conductor of electricity,
BUT,
When there is a ARC, like when the spark energy JUMPS THE GAP BETWEEN ROTOR AND PLUG TERMINAL,
IT burns the aluminum into a 'Crust'...
That 'Crust' is Aluminum Oxide, and Aluminum Oxide is NOT CONDUCIVE!

I know this IS NOT a 'Black' cap, but it's a 'Premium' cap with pretty good internal ribbing to block cross fires,
BUT,
IT HAS ALUMINUM TERMINALS, and at 3 months old, this Jeep already had a SERIOUS miss fire/cross fire problem!
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SO, With every firing of the ignition, it's building an ELECTRICAL INSULATOR SHELL over the terminal it's suppose to be firing,
BUT,
The SIDES of the terminal in front, and behind of the proper terminal are exposed conductors!
SO, The spark Energy just jumps to the easier conductor terminal, and it's not the PROPER terminal.

Aluminum terminals get 'BURROWED' into when the arc strike, so you can't just sand away the surface oxides, since the arc burned a 'Worm Hole' in the terminal...

Brass terminals build up carbon deposits, but you can scrape them with a light sanding, and go right on using the same distributor cap for YEARS!
...............

The other aspect we need to address is IONIZED AIR.
You CAN NOT have an arc without ionizing the air in the gap between both terminals.
This isn't a problem in the cylinders, since the 'Ozone' or Ionized air exits with the exhaust,

BUT,
In a distributor cap, the Ionized air builds up...
And makes it possible for an electrical discharge to jump anywhere it is drawn...

See, if the cap is fully ionized, the normal rules don't apply the way you think they should...
Fully ionized, the electrons are free to go any direction the ionized air is drifting... So the spark might turn 90, make and 'S' bend, then jump to the shaft, housing, wrong plug terminal, ect.

If the cap has conductive carbon black in it, the problem is COMPOUNDED.

By using a COLORED cap (no carbon) and BRASS TERMINALS,
And spreading the terminals and ground access to the distributor housing farther apart, we are GREATLY increasing the chances the spark energy will go to the correct spark plug terminal!

ADDING a bunch of extra air volume inside the distributor cap makes it MUCH HARDER for ALL the air to get ionized,
AND The taller Ford rotor is actually DESIGNED TO STIR UP THE AIR inside the cap to keep the Ion trails broken up!

Take a CLOSE LOOK at this rotor...
You will see the "Carbon Tracking" where the spark energy was coming in through the center coil wires terminal, and jumping directly AWAY from the rotor nose and DIRECTLY AWAY from the terminal it was supposed to be firing!
Posted Image

If you look at the rotor 'Nose' you will see the cheap material it's made of has Oxidized so badly the spark energy would rather go out the BACK SIDE than go to the terminal it was intended for!

And remember, this is a 3 month old 'Premium' cap and rotor, with store brand 'Premium' plug wires!...
(All ignition components ARE NOT created equal, no matter how shiny the box or how much advertising they do!)

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This is a TRUE UPGRADE.
There is NO DOWN SIDE to this, so it's an UPGRADE for the Jeep.

Simple tune up parts, off the shelf at any auto parts store...

From an '82 Ford F-150 Pickup with 300 CID I-6 Engine,
Distributor Cap Adapter,
Distributor Cap,
Rotor,
*IF* Factory Coil,
Plug Wires, Autolite brand p/n 96171.

*IF* E-core coil,
Plug Wires from 94 Jeep with 4.0L engine
Autolite brand p/n 96624.

Both will fit PERFECTLY!


=======================================


MSD ignition IS NOT the TeamRush Upgrade.

CDI modules (of which MSD is one of the best makers) complement the TeamRush Upgrade, but the two are NOT the same thing.

To use a CDI module correctly, you SHOULD do the TeamRush Upgrade FIRST!
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The 'TeamRush Upgrade' fixes the problems with the distributor cap, rotor and plug wires so you can get the Spark Energy to the plugs.

CDI ignition modules (like MSD) make the coil put out 500% to 1,000% MORE spark energy.

If you use a CDI ignition module,
(in place of the factory ignition module, which is a 'Weakling' compared to the CDI modules...)

Instead of 12 volts or less getting to the ignition coil,
The CDI module will feed it 400 to 600 volts!

Instant increase of 500% to 1,000% in coil output energies!

The CDI ignitions are VERY EASY to install, and with some simple adapters and connectors, they are virtually a drop in install.
------------------------------------------------------

First Off,
Lets cover the 'Off Road' modules.

The 'Off Road' module is sealed up,
Potted in epoxy, so once you own one, you are stuck with it no matter what happens.
MSD has an EXCELLENT warranty program, and still warranties modules that have been out there for 25 years,
BUT,
The 'OFF ROAD' module is NON-SERVICEABLE!

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
Posted Image

Unless you plan to dunk it under water regularly or mount it somewhere STUPID, they just aren't worth the money for the average user.
-----------------------------

With a 258 I-6 engine, you probably don't have enough cam left to over-rev the engine...
So a rev limiter isn't an issue like it would be with a Fresh V-8...

So, if you are set on MSD, I'd say this is your best bang for the buck...

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
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If you are not married to the MSD name, THIS is the best bang for the buck...

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
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Either way, this is what you need to make a really painless connection of the 'Power Up' wire,

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
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When you unplug your stock module (under the windshield washer tank), you plug this into the wires from the harness,
And it makes your install 'Seamless' with no wire cutting...
(don't forget to tape over the DuraSpark module 2 wire plug!)

------------------------------------------------

Use this connector from Auto Zone to hook the MSD up to your stock ignition coil (just unplug the factory harness connector, and plug this right on the factory coil) Autozone p/n 252.
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DO NOT forget to tape over your factory harness coil connector!

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Use the Motorcraft/MSD adapter to switch distributor wiring from Motorcraft plug to MSD plug...
(Disconnect the harness, and tape over the harness plug)

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
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This is what it looks like plugged into the distributor.
Notice the harness plug to the left that needs to be taped over?
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Here is your wiring diagram if you use the common MSD or the Summit versions since they use the same plugs for everything...
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LEAVE THE FACTORY IGNITION WIRING IN PLACE!

If you need a back up ignition for any reason, you can take the tape off the module harness plug, the distributor harness plug and the harness coil connector,
Plug them back in and you have a complete back up ignition!
Trail or daily driver redundancy is a GOOD thing!
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Pick a spot the CDI module is NOT going to get wet!
I mount them under my dash most of the time so they don't get rained on.
(and in your case, don't get salt water on them)

The is an "Extension" for the sensitive distributor trigger wires,
MSD p/n 8862

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku
Posted Image
Keep this wire away from the coil or power wires!


=====================================

"Distributor"

Your vacuum advance should be pointing at the front of the engine block,
And your rotor should be pointing at the pivot point for the vacuum advance when the distributor is fully installed.

Like this when correctly installed...
Posted Image


----------------------------

Here is one thing you might not know...

The distributor DOES NOT CARE where you place it in rotation.
It simply triggers three times in any given rotation of the crankshaft.
------------

TO SET YOUR DISTRIBUTOR IN THE CORRECT LOCATION...

FIND COMPRESSION STROKE of the #1 (Front) Cylinder.
Take the spark plug out, turn the engine over BY HAND, CLOCKWISE, until you feel the pressure start to build in the cylinder.

DON'T USE THE STARTER TO 'BUMP' THE ENGINE!
With the spark plug out, the momentum of the crankshaft and starter/flywheel will carry the crank right past the compression stroke!
ROTATE BY HAND!

Once the compression stroke starts,
Take a breath, then find yourself a chop stick from the local 'Oriental' restaurant, and use that IN THE SPARK PLUG HOLE to feel for the cylinder coming up.
When you feel the top of the piston coming up, go slow with turning the crankshaft...
You want to find the point where the piston is at TOP DEAD CENTER.
The farthest up it will go!

Now, You have just VERIFIED TDC of #1 On COMPRESSION STROKE with nothing more than a spark plug socket, a chop stick and a wrench to turn the crankshaft bolt.
Older engines, you can just grab the lower pulley with your hands and turn the crank!

NOW,
You have VERIFIED COMPRESSION STROKE,
You have VERIFIED TDC of #1,

It's time to have a look at the harmonic balancer and see if the mark on it lines up with timing marks on the front cover.
It should be VERY CLOSE to the ZERO degree mark.
If it's NOT, the balancer is shot!

NOW,
Move to the distributor.
Locate the #1 on the distributor cap.
That is were the #1 plug wire should be located.
If it's not, you have a problem...
Not a big problem, but a problem...

Unbolt the distributor, and move the housing around so it looks like then one in the picture, with the vacuum advance nipple pointing at the front of the engine block...

Lift the distributor until the distributor gear clears the camshaft gear, and the rotor turns freely.

This would be a GREAT time for a new distributor gasket!... But you don't have to lift the distributor completely out of the engine if you aren't changing gaskets...
If you are not comfortable with that, then don't do it...

When you have the rotor pointing like the one in the picture,
You need to turn the rotor BACKWARDS (COUNTER-CLOCKWISE) about 1 cap terminal space, to 1.5 cap terminal spaces,
Then drop the distributor back down on the camshaft.

As the gears engage, you will notice the rotor turning.

TAKE NOTE!
Your distributor probably won't drop all the way back in place.
THIS IS NORMAL!
It's the oil pump not lining up with the distributor shaft, and it happens to everybody.

WHERE YOU GET INTO TROUBLE IS...
TURNING THE DISTRIBUTOR SHAFT TO MAKE THE DISTRIBUTOR DROP INTO PLACE!
Do it the other way around!

TURN THE ENGINE OVER TWO FULL REVOLUTIONS and come back to TDC mark on the balancer now that you VERIFIED it's correct.

DO NOT TURN JUST ONCE, or turn until the distributor drops!
You MUST turn the engine over TWO FULL REVOLUTIONS.
You CAN use the starter for this! BUT make sure you keep track of how many turns you go!

When you have two full revolutions,
You felt the compression as the engine stopped turning,
The balancer mark is back at 'ZERO' on the scale,
The distributor should be fully seated on the block,
and the rotor should be pointing at the pivot point on the vacuum advance like the one in the picture...

NOW!
*IF* the rotor is pointing at the pivot arm, the vacuum advance nipple is pointing at the front of the engine, (like in the picture),
The balancer mark is at 'Zero' (more or less)...
You are ready to move your firing order around to it's proper location and you are done (Don't forget to time the engine, and lock the distributor down!)

*IF* The rotor is pointing AWAY from the pivot point on the vacuum advance arm... (And this is actually pretty common for guys that use the starter instead of turning the engine by hand)

You only turned the engine ONCE, or you turned the engine THREE revolutions instead of EXACTLY TWO REVOLUTIONS.

This means you need to locate COMPRESSION of #1 CYLINDER AGAIN, LOCATE TDC AGAIN, LIFT THE DISTRIBUTOR, AND RESET THE DISTRIBUTOR.

*IF* The distributor dropped into place, but the rotor nose a about half a space one way or the other of the vacuum advance pivot point.
You turned the rotor too little or too much before dropping the distributor.

You are already at Compression TDC of #1, so just lift the distributor, adjust the rotor nose counter clockwise (adjusting for what you just saw) and try to drop it on the correct spot on the cam gear again...
Keep in mind you WILL have to turn the crankshaft TWO MORE TIMES with each try if the distributor doesn't drop down to the block when installed...
(and it usually won't!)

Once your distributor & rotor look like the ones in the picture, you are just a few degrees off in timing, so you MUST time the engine when done!
AND DON'T FORGET TO MOVE THE PLUG WIRES AROUND SO THE #1PLUG WIRE IS ON THE #1 TERMINAL, AND CORRECT THE REST OF THE FIRING ORDER...
1-5-3-6-2-4 CLOCKWISE
Also, forgetting to tighten the distributor clamp down is common, so remember that.

This procedure will give you,
VERIFICATION of COMPRESSION STROKE.
VERIFICATION of TDC
VERIFICATION your balancer isn't shot (yet).
VERIFICATION that your distributor is correctly placed.
-----------------------------

REMEMBER!

It's the ROTOR/PLUG WIRE relationship that cares where things go!
Since the gear on the distributor is 'Spiral' cut, the rotor is going to try and turn as the distributor drops into place, so remember to turn the rotor nose 1 to 1.5 spaces COUNTER CLOCK WISE before you start to drop it on the camshaft gear...
That way it will be in the correct location when the distributor drops fully in place (Directly down) on the oil pump shaft...
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#2 User is offline   JeepinIan 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:33 PM

:click:

As you aluded to, every in line 6 banger I have run across has the same firing order 1 -5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4
Ian Stewart

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#3 User is offline   sgt1022 

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 08:37 PM

This is probably a stupid question and I'm not very knowledgable on ignition tuning. Why is it important to have the distributor vac. advance pointing toward the front of the engine?

#4 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 08:41 PM

Because it is a reference point to a dizzy that is set correct so the vacuum will advance correctly. The 258 can be run 180* degrees out of time. Almost any non-computer engine can be run 180* out, the firing will be wrong to a certain point but then again U can have #1 plug fire in the #5 position. I think I said it right
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#5 User is offline   sgt1022 

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 04:46 AM

View PostRollbar, on Jan 31 2009, 08:41 PM, said:

Because it is a reference point to a dizzy that is set correct so the vacuum will advance correctly. The 258 can be run 180* degrees out of time. Almost any non-computer engine can be run 180* out, the firing will be wrong to a certain point but then again U can have #1 plug fire in the #5 position. I think I said it right


Ok. I need to adjust mine them. It points more toward the alternator instead of the front of the engine.

#6 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 10:48 AM

View Postsgt1022, on Feb 2 2009, 04:46 AM, said:

Ok. I need to adjust mine them. It points more toward the alternator instead of the front of the engine.


Yes. It will still run but sounds like U R a :lol: off :lol:

GO HERE

Also, if it's pointing some place else it was not on top dead center when the dizzy was installed. They are finicky when U put them in, has to be just right.
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Support the Central Florida Bible Camp for kids

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#7 User is offline   xethos 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 03:13 PM

ok ill try it

#8 User is offline   jimmy 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 03:47 PM

the altenator is the front of the engine?? 180 out it would point at the firewall?? :)
Jimmy Bass
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86 CJ-7, 258 CID, 5 spd, 2 1/2" springs, 1" body lift, webber carb, HEI ignition, 30 front, 44 rear, 3.31 gears, and 33x12.50-15 cooper STT's

#9 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 04:12 PM

U can have the #1 fire on #3 or 6 & the rotor will be pointing to that position while the dizzy is still right in some cases but not to many. IF it is pointing to the fire wall then something is not right, U R firing on a different cyl than #1.

There is a post on here by me about Rotor Phasing, I suggest you read it cause it might help clear somethings up.
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#10 User is offline   Monster76 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 05:10 PM

i just converted mine to hei style from crt ctr sumtin like that i couldnt be happier simple two wire hook up and it runs real good, i was gonna go ahead use the 6a/blaster coild and the stock dizzy but it had play in the shaft, the cam gear was worn out so i just went ahead and ordered an HEI and made my life easier i also eliminated the ignition module
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#11 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 05:39 PM

I hate to say this but in most cases if U don't change out your cam gear the dizzy it won't last long with some of these after market metals they R using. If there was that much slop in the gear I would be checking the timing chain.
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#12 User is offline   Monster76 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 08:54 PM

i just rebuilt the motor with everything new and i did not want to use the old ignition system
89 YJ d44/d60 38" tsl's 4" springs front 4.5" XJ springs in rear HEAVY RIGHT FOOT 4.2 I6 5 spd sye w/custom shafts, some lights and ICE COLD A/C

#13 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:09 PM

Sorry to get off topic here a little but since U mentioned it..... I'm glad it's working out for you.


There have been some complaints about CRT gears here.

The only way to test for sure if it's steel or iron is to chuck up about an 1/8" drill bit, and drill into the apron of the gear about 90 from the pin hole.
If it drills easily, it's iron...

If it drills hard, it's probably the Spanish hardened steel gear and you shouldn't use it.

Then all you have to worry about is if the guys that made the gear did the tooth profile correctly.
Some of the Mexican iron gears had the wrong tooth profile, but were at least iron...

The I-6 engine has the cam gear cut into the cam it's self,
While the V-8 has a removable gear at the end of the cam.

SO,
If you are going to use a aftermarket gear on a I-6 cam gear, you had better make every effort to be 'Correct' or your cam goes away...
------------------

One other thing to clear up,
The gear off your '85 factory distributor WILL NOT fit on on most aftermarket HEI clones... So there is no "Using the old one to be safe".

You will have to measure your distributor shaft. Most HEI clones aren't even close to factory GM HEI size, but you might get lucky and if you do, I can give you the part number for the correct gear for your application.


-------------------

YOU CAN NOT USE A GM GEAR, THEY TURN THE WRONG WAY.

NO YOU CAN NOT USE THE MOTORCRAFT GEAR ON AN HEI...
The shafts are not close to being the same size, so there is no using the old gear in this case...

Measure the shaft and use a proper size gear,

NAPA/Echlin p/n DG 400, DG 401 or DG 402 should work.
This is the correct gear for your AMC engine on a Delco distributor shaft.

------------------

My advise is to stay on top of it even after a year, here's why.

The Mexican gears are were IRON, but they were bored off center and had the cross pin hole off center and at an odd angle (X & Y angles seriously screwed up)

If you have a Mexican gear, and one side of the distributor gear seems to be more polished than the other,
Or your oil pressure dropped after you installed the distributor, it's eating away at your engine.

The cross (roll pin) hole is often too high, forcing the gear against the distributor housing, causing drag that both eats up the cam drive gear, and oil pump that's connected to the other end of the distributor.

Many of the HEI CLONES had housings that were TOO LONG that put down force on the oil pump.
The makers solution was for the consumer to buy another camshaft, oil pump, foot the bill to have the engine repaired, then use DOUBLE GASKETS to keep the distributor from eating up the new oil pump and cam shaft drive gear...

Here is a picture of the Factory I-6 Gear next to the V-8 Gear...
Posted Image

Now, about any one can see that the cross pin hole need to be relocated on the V-8 Gear (Right) to make it work correctly on the I-6 distributor shaft, but for some reason, the HEI CLONE makers don't...
(AMC I-6 Gear Left)
-----------------------

V-8 gears, which are often used when the HEI clones for the I-6 engines are ASSEMBLED in America, but made of foreign parts manufacture, had many of the same problems...

The Spanish gears were easy to spot with nothing more than an 1/8" drill bit...
Like I said before, simply turn the gear 90 degrees to the roll pin, and drill a hole on the apron to the shaft.

If it doesn't drill, just makes a divot and blunts the drill bit, then you have one of the hardened steel gear from Spain and they are utter crap.

Not only are the Rockwell C scale 62 to 65, but they are longer, putting down pressure on the oil pump in V-8 engine,
And they have cross pin holes drilled off center and off angle (X & Y axis) that makes for a ruined distributor shaft if you try and install them on existing distributors...

Take note of the terrible machining on the edges of the distributor gear teeth!
Those make GREAT cutting tools to carve up your camshaft gear that is 10 or more Rockwell 'C' scale points softer than the gear is!
Posted Image

And just in case you are wondering, this is a friend that supplied these pictures of his gears.
This was the result of the overly hardened gear that wasn't running true...
Posted Image

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#14 User is offline   Monster76 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:30 PM

idk ima have to check this out i know two people with this setup and it been good to them so far so i figured id be safe and when i installed it, it went in smooth no prob and its been working flawlessly but thanks for the heads up ima look this up
89 YJ d44/d60 38" tsl's 4" springs front 4.5" XJ springs in rear HEAVY RIGHT FOOT 4.2 I6 5 spd sye w/custom shafts, some lights and ICE COLD A/C

#15 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:36 PM

If it's the MSD set up then I would say U R alright.

MSD and DUI are the ONLY aftermarket companies I'm aware of that didn't get into the hardened, off center bored gears.

MSD has engineers that check everything, and I mean EVERYTHING about every batch, so it's no surprise they didn't have problems.

The Reman suppliers didn't have problems, but they buy from the same place that makes the orignal factory gears and always have.
They also have REAL ENGINEERS that watch EVERYTHING, since they sell more distributors in a week than all the aftermarket guys do in a year...
They just don't want the failures and warranty comebacks, and I can't blame them.

I don't know how DUI dodged the bullet.
I guess the 'Davis' guy was either REAL LUCKY, or Real Diligent on his tech inspections...

Anyway,
The gears from NAPA, the gears from the Reman Builders, the gears from MSD and DUI have never been an issue for some...
They ALWAYS checked out.

Chrysler dealership has the gears back in stock after not having any for quite a time,
NAPA carries the orignal AMC factory supplier gears,
MSD has a really FINE gear made for it's AMC applications, better than factory stock,
And the Remanufacture industry uses factory quality gears on their remans...
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#16 User is offline   Monster76 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 10:01 PM

im def gonna look into im not to familiar in the jeep world hell i was surpised when my stock dizzy said motocraft on it
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#17 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 10:23 AM

Monster76.
Here is a good way to tell.

If it only has a 'Dimple' it could mean one of two things...

1. You are getting a RETURN someone else drilled and rejected because of hardened gears!

Placement of the 'Dimple' might tell you something,
If it doesn't line up nearly EXACTLY with the rotor nose, and it's about 90 to the pin holes, then that would suggest what we have been telling people to do for the last two years,
Rotate the gear 90 to the pin hole, and try to drill it.
Dimple suggest a HARDENED GEAR...

Drill all the way to the distributor shaft at 90 to the roll pin!
This way, you can EASILY tell the difference between a 'Tested' gear and a 'Divot' for proper alignment install...

2. Some companies drill a 'Dimple' in the gear that corresponds to the rotor nose placement.
See if your rotor nose is aligned with the 'Dimple'...

THIS IS A CLOSE UP OF THE FACTORY DIVOT ON A JEEP/MOTORCRAFT I-6 DISTRIBUTOR.
Posted Image

NOTICE THE 'DIVOT' HAS FACTORY METAL FINISH IN IT!
If it doesn't have the rust proofing, and it's raw shiny metal, I'd SERIOUSLY consider sending it back!

IN THIS PICTURE, THE DIVIOT IS POLISHED SO YOU CAN SEE IT, AND POINTED OUT THE RELATIONSHIP TO THE ROTOR.

Posted Image

With 13 teeth on the gear, there is no 'Centerline' to the gear, so there IS a 'Front Side' and a 'Backwards' to the gear!
The 'Divot' is there to tell you where the gear is supposed to be installed...
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#18 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:20 PM

Your welcome. I won't be on line later today, back on Sunday night/Monday.

?
Do you have a oil drain plug w/a magnetic end? If not, get one cause they help a lot as well as magnets around the oil filter.
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#19 User is offline   Monster76 

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 01:05 PM

View PostRollbar, on Feb 20 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

Your welcome. I won't be on line later today, back on Sunday night/Monday.

?
Do you have a oil drain plug w/a magnetic end? If not, get one cause they help a lot as well as magnets around the oil filter.



i always put drain plug with magnetic end just to give me an idea whether i should be worried or onot, the whole reason i rebuilt the motor was because of the timing chain though it had that plastic all the way around and one day i was driving and lost oil pressure and then it started knocking and when i dropped the pan the oil pickup was clooged with plastic so i ended taking it apart w/new everything the crank thank god i did not ride it like that all i had to do was have it micropolished i rehoned my cyliners put new rings mains rods bearings, all new gaskets my cam was in perfect shape i reused that etc..
89 YJ d44/d60 38" tsl's 4" springs front 4.5" XJ springs in rear HEAVY RIGHT FOOT 4.2 I6 5 spd sye w/custom shafts, some lights and ICE COLD A/C

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