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When is a Jeep a Jeep

#1 User is offline   soflmuddin 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 05:22 AM

when is a jeep a jeep? :rolleyes:
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toyota fj-40
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suzuki samurai
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nissan patrol
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land roaver
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international scout :2thumup:



hrere is where it gets confusing
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bantam made the first "jeep", in just a few weeks.
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ford made the gp, which is where the "jeep" name is to believed to have been started. the gi's would say "gp" and from that it became "jeep".
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who can tell the difference between the ford gpw and the willys mb? o'ya the grill at the top of the page, under jeep talk, you can thank ford for that design. :scratch:
so when did jeeps become jeeps or is a jeep a type of vehicle? :scratch:
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#2 User is offline   Jim B 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 08:30 AM

View Postsoflmuddin, on Apr 25 2008, 05:22 AM, said:

bantam made the first "jeep", in just a few weeks.

Correct

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who can tell the difference between the ford gpw and the willys mb?

I can, and it's not on the Grill.

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o'ya the grill at the top of the page, under jeep talk, you can thank ford for that design.

If I'm not mistaken that is a Willys design.

Willys had the contract and was the original designer. Ford came afterward to help out the War effort because Willys could not make them fast enough. Ford was told by the Gov to follow the same specs as the Willys. Ford being the way they are wanted to still be noted so they began stamping parts GPW. There is another major difference in design which makes the GPW a weaker vehicle in my opinion vs the Willys. I'll let you tell us what that is.

Granted if someone gave me a GPW I would be going crazy and mother it just like I do the Willys.
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#3 User is offline   SouthernStyleV8 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 08:38 AM

it is a jeep when there is a tag somewhere that says
jeep!!!!! and btw i think scouts are badass i had one for abouot 12 hours... then gave it to a friend because it was so rustedouti needed a tetnas shot to work on it
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#4 User is offline   NonStop 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 10:21 AM

While at towers one night , one of the classics crew pointed something out, I may be distorting it a bit, but behind the lower grille on the ford there is a bar that is sort of curved vs/ the bar being straight on the Willy's. . I am sure I either have this very backward or just plain crooked, but the ID is somewhere right around there. . JIM give it up, let us know..

BY the way, I love everyone one of those vehicles, specifically the IHC and the FJ becuase I grew up around them.. I love the Defender, but think it has been played out in a big way in it's yuppie format, same with the newest "FJ" but atleast the 40's and 60's weren't played out... Plus the Land Rover really did come from Jeepin roots, and it was awesome.. Heck all of these are in bastard children of the Jeep..
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#5 User is offline   Jim B 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:09 PM

View Postsoflmuddin, on Apr 25 2008, 05:22 AM, said:

ford made the gp, which is where the "jeep" name is to believed to have been started. the gi's would say "gp" and from that it became "jeep".

Forgot to address this comment.

Below is a picture of the top head of an original GoDevil engine in a Willys 1942 Jeep. Ford GPW was not around in early 1942.
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Below is the same GoDevil engine, can you tell now where the Jeep name came from. :) :)
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If you take a close look toward the top right of the above picture you will see the Willys marking on the same prior picture I posted.


View PostNonstop, on Apr 25 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

I may be distorting it a bit, but behind the lower grille on the ford there is a bar that is sort of curved vs/ the bar being straight on the Willy's. . I am sure I either have this very backward or just plain crooked, but the ID is somewhere right around there. . JIM give it up, let us know..

Close, Willys MB has a cross tube frame support vs square GPW channel.. you got it backward but.... there is more Grasshopper. :bicept:
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#6 User is offline   XrayDivr 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 02:05 PM

View Postsouthernstylev8, on Apr 25 2008, 09:38 AM, said:

it is a jeep when there is a tag somewhere that says
jeep!!!!! and btw i think scouts are badass i had one for abouot 12 hours... then gave it to a friend because it was so rustedouti needed a tetnas shot to work on it


i agree the scouts are badass my dad has had one since he bought it new in 79 still original engine, tranny!
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#7 User is offline   gatordone 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 06:13 PM

View PostJim B, on Apr 25 2008, 08:30 AM, said:

Willys had the contract and was the original designer. Ford came afterward to help out the War effort because Willys could not make them fast enough. Ford was told by the Gov to follow the same specs as the Willys. Ford being the way they are wanted to still be noted so they began stamping parts GPW. There is another major difference in design which makes the GPW a weaker vehicle in my opinion vs the Willys. I'll let you tell us what that is.

Granted if someone gave me a GPW I would be going crazy and mother it just like I do the Willys.



Grille
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Posted Image Willys MB (US Army). Willys made its first 25,000 MB Jeeps with a welded flat iron "slat" radiator grille. It was Ford who first designed and implemented the now familiar and distinctive stamped, slotted steel grille into its cars, which was lighter, used fewer resources, and was less costly to produce. Along with many other design features innovated by Ford, this was adopted by Willys and implemented into the standard WW II Jeep by April 1942.

Even today, some 65 years later, Jeep's makers proudly retain the historical connection to the visage of their ancestors by using a trademarked grille featuring a standard number of vertical openings or 'slots'. However, in order to be able to get theirs trademarked, Willys gave their post-war jeeps seven slots instead of Ford's nine-slot design. Through a long path of corporate take-overs and the like, AM General Corporation ended up with the rights to use the seven-slot grille as well, which they in turn extended to General Motors when they sold GM the rights to the Hummer name in 1999.

This is from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willys_MB#Ori...term_.22jeep.22
and I also got the same info from a DVD I have called "Wild about Wheels-Jeep-The Unstoppable Soldier" This is a fascinating historic look at America's most dependable and heroic automobile

#8 User is offline   BustedKnuckl 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:05 PM

I'll bet Jim B can clear this up for me and a few others - Weren't the heads on chassis bolts and other bolts on early GPW first stamped with the ford "F", but after preasure changed it to the GPW logo??
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#9 User is offline   gatordone 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:37 PM

View PostBustedKnuckl, on Apr 25 2008, 07:05 PM, said:

I'll bet Jim B can clear this up for me and a few others - Weren't the heads on chassis bolts and other bolts on early GPW first stamped with the ford "F", but after preasure changed it to the GPW logo??


This due to the government having both Willys and Ford producing the same identical vehicle and Ford being arrogant and not wanting to be the same. Anything produced by Ford was stamped with the "F" to stand out.

#10 User is offline   Jim B 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 09:04 PM

Quote

The first jeep prototype (the Bantam BRC) was built for the Department of the Army by American Bantam in Butler, Pennsylvania, followed by two other competing prototypes produced by Ford and Willys-Overland. The American Bantam Car Company actually built and designed the vehicle that first met the Army's criteria, but its engine did not meet the Army's torque requirements. Plus, the Army felt that the company was too small to supply the number needed and it allowed Willys and Ford to make second attempts on their designs after seeing Bantam's vehicle in action. Some people believe that Ford and Willys also had access to Bantam's technical paperwork.

Quantities (1,500) of each of the three models were then extensively field tested. During the bidding process for 16,000 "jeeps," Willys-Overland offered the lowest bid and won the initial contract. Willys thus designed what would become the standardized jeep, designating it a model MB military vehicle and building it at their plant in Toledo, Ohio.

Like American Bantam, Willys-Overland was a small company and, likewise, the military was concerned about their ability to produce large quantities of jeeps. The military was also concerned that Willys-Overland had only one manufacturing facility: something that would make the supply of jeeps more susceptible to sabotage or production stoppages.

Based on these two concerns, the U.S. government required that jeeps also be built by the Ford Motor Company, who designated the vehicle as model GPW (G = governmental vehicle, P showed the wheelbase, and W = the Willys design). Willys and Ford, under the direction of Charles E. Sorensen (Vice-President of Ford during World War II), produced more than 600,000 jeeps. Besides just being a "truck" the jeep was used for many other purposes.

I am going to have to dig through my old manuals, the above was the first statement and make no mention of design until later. We can debate what has been written just like we can debate the bible all day long. I've read in G503 and gone back and forth with the military collector gurus and no one can ever come up with the same answer. I don't recall ever seeing on pictures or any one mentioning an early 42 GPW, I have seen and read about 42 GPW but they were mid to later 42s. According to many written books the stamp grilled was designed by Ford yet I only see the very early MBs with them after the slot Bantam. Another thing that is highly debated in G503 is which frame was stronger, the MB or the GPW. I happen to think and reason the MB, not because I have an MB but because I've seen both and make my own decision. I've even spoken with one engineer at Camp Jeep on this and a local one here on the design of the frame. Who is right who is wrong.... does it really matter. If I have to stand corrected by the Wikipedia I could, but I'm a bit stubborn on this one. Maybe someone can do a search and show me an early 42 GPW with a picture of the GoDevil Head and the front grill. There were so many changes also toward the end of 42 as they ran short on rubber and plastic. They even removed the plastic at the spokes of the steering wheel. It took me a while to locate the correct Scheller steering wheel for my month and year. When I was finishing up the Willys I wanted to be as correct as possible and this is where I began understanding some of these discrepancies. I happen to like the 9 slot and if Ford was responsible then great but I want to see an early 42 gpw and engine head. I kind of had a feeling we were going to have a healthy debate when I stated otherwise. We have read that Willys had the contract and then Ford came in, but I have also read that the Gov forward the specs to both Willys and Ford at the same time and Willys won out, than Ford came later to help. One of the biggest debates I happened to follow 3 years ago was shade of Paint. I had to decide for my month and year, there were 3 different shades from 42 to 45. Do a search here on JeepTalk on this.

There are also many collectors I know that spends some serious money on GPW in making sure that the F marks are all over, even on the bolts. The more F marks the more the vehicle is worth. I've seen on ebay a box of F mark bolts New Old Stock go for big money. Don't ask me what I spent on my Scheller steering wheel for the MB. There were also a set of 5 wrenches in the tool box, the smallest Open end, 3/8 & 7/16 which the soldiers lost because of it's size. I've seen the wrench go on ebay with good markings for $350. I was fortunate and got mine for $150 a few years back. There were a few manufacturers of tools but the first and most valuable manufacturer was made by Fairmount with the Made in USA marking.

Getting back to some of the pics on the first post. I have to confess that I have always liked the early FJ40 Toyota and the Scout still kicks butt in my book. AMC was my favorite civilian Jeep manufacturer of early. There is something special about the name Willys & Bantam days. :good:
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#11 User is offline   soflmuddin 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 09:49 PM

i have been out all day and just read where this is going. not what i was trying to say. i was simply trying to see who out there sees jeep vehicles as jeeps vs. jeep corporation, ones labeled jeep, as the only jeeps. my thought goes back a few years ago when i was looking for a samurai. i already had the cj-5 that was open and when i say open i mean open. you got it all rain, mud, bugs...etc. so i was looking for a hard top. i ran into this guy and when i told him i had a cj-5 he said " o-you have an American jeep". i never really thought there was any other. but now mudding in the samurai i have been more open minded.my starting the thing with the ford vs. wiilys was to really break down the walls between American manufacturers so some may be more open minded when we take the cj-5 and samurai out on the trails. some people only want to ride with jeep vehicles. my '79 cj-5 has ford motorcraft parts all over the engine compartment. no research behind it but it seems jeep has been in bed with almost all American manufacturers. to me unless you separate all chrysler jeeps from previous ones they are all jeep (vehicles). and i do respect the other jeep (brand) vehicles. i would still love to have a j-10, and i am waiting for this guy to give up on his willys mb, it will be mine. :good:
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#12 User is offline   BustedKnuckl 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 10:47 PM

To me, theres no "Jeep Type Vechicle" - only copy cats. Using Jeep to define another brand is just ignorant and gives uneeded credit to the fakes ( :haha: )

I.e -

The Suzuki Samurai - First Year - 1982!

The Nissan Patrol - 1951 (Close, but not quite)

The International Scout - 1961 (A tad late)

The Toyota FJ40 ( :good: ) - 1960 (Just beat the Scout)

& the Land Rover - 1948 (Close, but no cigar)

They are ALL after the fact and they wanna be the best (so people pass it off as "Jeep Type"), and they've been trying to chase down the True Jeep ever since.
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#13 User is offline   soflmuddin 

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 04:08 AM

View PostBustedKnuckl, on Apr 25 2008, 11:47 PM, said:

To me, theres no "Jeep Type Vechicle" - only copy cats. Using Jeep to define another brand is just ignorant and gives uneeded credit to the fakes ( :haha: )

I.e -

The Suzuki Samurai - First Year - 1982!

The Nissan Patrol - 1951 (Close, but not quite)

The International Scout - 1961 (A tad late)

The Toyota FJ40 ( :haha: ) - 1960 (Just beat the Scout)

& the Land Rover - 1948 (Close, but no cigar)

They are ALL after the fact and they wanna be the best (so people pass it off as "Jeep Type"), and they've been trying to chase down the True Jeep ever since.

and yet we have many "cars", "trucks", "vans" and "suv's". surly there was a first. is that the only? no. if the bloodline of jeep didnt start with willys how can you say that it was the first. remember that the goverment gave willys and ford the blueprints of the bantam (bad big brother). who knows what the willys would have finally looked like without bantams design. or without the merging the best parts of the three into one. so when did the one and only become one. personally i am glad it played out that way, you cant beat the name willys and the mb is the jeep mans jeep. i will have one :good: hey bustedknuckle i used to live in naples and go mudding in "badluck prairie". what do the call it now? east of 951 and north of 41. suzuki came out with thier "jeep copy cat" in the mid '60's
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#14 User is offline   soflmuddin 

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 06:12 AM

anyone know what vehicle this is? wasnt made by willys or ford or amc or chrysler
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not made in america, is it still a jeep
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#15 User is offline   NonStop 

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 07:06 AM

Mitsubishi made something like that until recently, so did a few other manufacturers around the world if I am not mistaken.. Again, Jim???
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#16 User is offline   BustedKnuckl 

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 07:34 AM

View Postsoflmuddin, on Apr 26 2008, 04:08 AM, said:

i used to live in naples and go mudding in "badluck prairie". what do the call it now? east of 951 and north of 41. suzuki came out with thier "jeep copy cat" in the mid '60's
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Soflmuddin - Didn't mean to ruffle your fethers. I too am glad things played out the way they did, and are really jealous that you own a MB :good:

Man there isn't anything out here! I actually live on 41 just 2 minutes East of 951. Found a few ATV trails I fit down, but nothing more then that. The "Badluck Prairie"?? Do tell. I've only been here since August.. you don't mean the swamp buggy races up on 951 & Rattlesnake right?

View Postsoflmuddin, on Apr 26 2008, 06:12 AM, said:

anyone know what vehicle this is? wasnt made by willys or ford or amc or chrysler
Posted Image
not made in america, is it still a jeep


Mitsubishi Pajero??
In Loving memory of my Caitiebaby..
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#17 User is offline   soflmuddin 

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:37 PM

View PostBustedKnuckl, on Apr 26 2008, 08:34 AM, said:

Soflmuddin - Didn't mean to ruffle your fethers. I too am glad things played out the way they did, and are really jealous that you own a MB :good:

Man there isn't anything out here! I actually live on 41 just 2 minutes East of 951. Found a few ATV trails I fit down, but nothing more then that. The "Badluck Prairie"?? Do tell. I've only been here since August.. you don't mean the swamp buggy races up on 951 & Rattlesnake right?



Mitsubishi Pajero??

we use to mud at the florida sports park were the swamp buggy races are. were i am talking about you access north of golden gate but south of pine ridge east of 951. it goes all the way past 4l off 41. the local slang name has probably changed so i dont know what to call it, it has been 12 years since i moved. what they call the hump here in homestead i know as "jack's" from 18 years ago. but you have to call it what people know. i'll hold off on telling what the last pic is of to see the response. will have to look up on the mitsubishi pajero, never heard of it.
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#18 User is offline   SoilantGreen 

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 03:24 AM

Random replies to things I've read in this thread...

Clarence Kramer of Ford designed the radiator protector (or grill) that Willys was later ordered to use on the standardized jeep model of WWII, that W-O continued to use (albeit with seven slots instead of the wartime nine) after the war, illegally trademarked along with the name "Jeep" in (about) 1950, and continues to use to this day. Roughly twenty five thousand MBs were produced with the Willys designed radiator protector which looks just like the welded together iron of any other military truck of the era.

So, Jim, if the front "hat channel" cross member is not the what makes the Ford "weaker" in your eyes, is it the different tub gussets beneath the fire wall? I know it's not the tool box lids, because Ford's were cooler than Willys'. The open channel frames needed to be reinforced with another c-channel to "box" them, but I believe that this was a failing of both models. In fact, until Ford got its frame production under way, they used Willys frames. Very early GPWs (early to mid 1942) often have the Willys tube front crossmember giving away who manufactured the frame. There is also evidence on some very early Ford models of a small plate welded to the top of the frame where it turns back to horizontal beneath the firewall. Presumably, this was to reinforce a weak spot.

The first Land Rover was built on a WWII jeep chassis and body. In fact, you can see the tool box lids and the curve of the back of the tub of the WWII jeep in the back.

When giving a "jeep history lesson" at our club's annual campout, I liked to follow this theme: Many people have tried to "out-jeep" the jeep. Where are they now? Mid America Research Corporation and AMC (before they bought Jeep) with the Mighty Mite; Land Rover with the Defender 89; Austin with the Champ and Gypsy; Suzuki with the Samurai; Nissan/Datsun with the Patrol; International Harvester with the Scout, Scout 80, Scout 800, and Scout II; Ford tried to steal it back with the M151 MUTT; Crosley with the Farm-O-Road, Ford again with the Bronco, and Toyota with the FJ-series among others have all tried to cut into the market share of the short wheelbase jeep. Where are they now? With the exception of the new FJ, none of these vehicles exist in 2008 and the Toyota is more of a retro homage to the old Land Cruiser than a serious attempt at an offroad rig.

The word "jeep" is more than just a slurring of the letters GP which was Ford's pre-standardized jeep. The G designates a government contract vehicle and the P denotes an eighty inch wheelbase reconnaissance car. When the W was added, it was because Ford was ordered to produce their jeep to the Willys design and Willys turned over copies of their blueprints. Similarly, the A in GPA (for Ford's jeep built with a hull and a propeller) was for "Amphibious". When someone says that GP stands for "General Purpose" or GPW for "General Purpose Wagon", someone should punch them in the mouth. After about twenty or thirty years, maybe about half of the population will stop saying it. Willys' pre-standardized jeep was the "MA" for Military model A. Jim's MB is a model B. The M38 was known internally as the MC and the M38A1 was the MD.

The word "jeep" was used to describe a pre-war tractor built by Minneapolis-Moline, any small cheaply made (or cheap looking vehicle), or even a new and unproven recruit. The Popeye cartoon had Eugene the Jeep who could pass through walls and go anywhere because he lived partially in another dimension. When asked what the name of the car was, one of the designers told a reporter that it was a "jeep" and it was described in the papers as a "jeep". All of these are plausible explanations for how the truck earned its name.


You'll notice that I use the terms "jeep" and "Jeep". My Mighty Mite is a jeep, my TJ is a Jeep. One is a 1/4 ton four wheel drive vehicle built to meet a military specification and the other was built by the Jeep corporation. Jim's MB is a jeep (remember Jeep as a corporation did not exist when it was built) and Wild Bill's wife's KJ Liberty is a Jeep. M151 MUTTs were built by Ford, Kaiser-Jeep, and American Motors. Which ones are jeeps and which are Jeeps? They're all jeeps in my eyes since they are built to be 500 pound capacity four wheel drive trucks for the military. OK, well the Kaiser built models of the early sixties can claim to be Jeeps with the capital J, but so can the Kaiser-Jeep M35A2 two and a half ton truck. You may also notice that I alternately refer to the jeep as a car and a truck. Several years back, a fellow member of the PRJ heard me call it a car and said "that's a five dollar fine for calling a jeep a car". "But the first jeep was the Bantam Reconnaissance Car" I said. "Oh, well never mind" then he answered. A few minutes later in conversation, I referred to it as a truck. "Now you'll at least pay the fine for calling it a truck" he said. "No, the dash plaque of every military jeep says 'Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4'." "Damn, it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight" he said. Besides, I was not informed of any such rule when I joined the Peace River club so I had no intention of paying any fines.

When AMC bought Jeep from Kaiser in 1970, they split off the Government Products Division and renamed it AM General. AMG continued to built M151A2s for the military, (and DJs for the post office) but they're not Jeeps. Now you know why the Hummers wear the jeep grill designed all those years ago by Mr. Kramer.

Many foreign companies were licensed to build jeeps in their countries. Hotchkiss-Jeep built a version of the MB in France up until 1968, Mitsubishi built a version of the CJ-3B that you could buy in the Canadian market as late as 1998. Mitsu even license built a version of the Willys all steel wagon. Bravo of Spain built -3Bs and 5s. Ford of Brazil built a M38A1 and Ford of Canada built M38 CDNs for the Canadian military. The Mahindra brothers assembled CKD (Complete Knock Down) jeeps out of boxes until they purchased the rights to market versions they built in India. To this day, they still build a -3B as well as vans, trucks, and buses based on the Forward Control. An Egyptian company built a long wheelbase version of the CJ-3B and one of them can be seen for a second or two in the movie Sahara.

There are at least four recognized olive drab colors documented on WWII jeeps, last I knew. Marine jeeps were requisitioned by the Navy from the Army before they were requisitioned by the Marines. A "proper" Marine GPW can have a coat of red oxide primer, a coat of olive drab, a coat of gloss gray from the Navy's repaint, and a coat of the Marines' forest green over the gray. It makes for some interesting overspray colors in the wheel wells of a good resto.

Legend has it that the reason for "Ford" or an "F" in script being cast or stamped onto every interchangeable (or identical to a MB) part of a GPW is that because the military required a full replacement warranty on every part, Henry Ford said he'd be damned if he was going to replace broken Willys parts. So everything from the seat backs and fenders, wheels and pintle hitch, spring perches and bolts had some marking to designate it as a piece that was assembled in one of the twelve plants in which Ford built GPWs. Another reason for Ford being given the secondary contract for producing the GPWs was because Henry's salesmen convinced the government procurers that Willys' one little Toledo plant could be subject to sabotage, slowdowns, or union strikes which would cripple the war effort. Ford had already converted all of its car and truck production to the manufacture of vehicles for the war and Henry wanted this contract too.

I make no claims at being a complete expert on the topic. But lots and lots of research has led me to believe these points. I invite anyone to correct me since if you have conflicting information, the people in the hobby want to know.

Discuss.
Jeeptobetfest is October 23 & 24. Y'all come!

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