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Lockers?

#1 User is offline   Rollbar 

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  Posted 14 June 2003 - 04:02 PM

I am planning on getting a locker very soon, question is which one & why?

Brand:

Pro's: :2thumup:

Con's: :tdown:

Thanks,

RollBar
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P.S. It will be for the rear.
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#2 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 14 June 2003 - 08:40 PM

Rollbar,

What type of wheeling will you mostly be doing?

What kind of axle do you have in the rear and will this be for your CJ?

Are you considering only new or used also?

Just trying to get more of a complete idea. :2thumup:
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#3 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 14 June 2003 - 09:35 PM

Jim B, on Jun 14 2003, 09:40 PM, said:

Rollbar,

What type of wheeling will you mostly be doing?
Mud/Sand

What kind of axle do you have in the rear and will this be for your CJ?
AMC 20, looking to go w/ the one piece axle???? It's for my 79' CJ

Are you considering only new or used also?
New, but maybe if the price is right.
On items like that I don't know if I should go used. I don't know that much about them. 

Just trying to get more of a complete idea.  :2thumup:


My first quote reply, I think I did it right.
RollBar
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#4 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 15 June 2003 - 10:50 AM

Let me start by talking a bit about lockers in general for those who are just learning or thinking if they really need a locker. :2thumup:

Detroit Truetrac, it is a limited slip differential, not a locker. Made by Tractech, manufacturer of the Detroit Locker, the gear-based Truetrac (as opposed to the weaker clutch-based Tracloc LSD) is "open" when in normal operation. It is doing nothing when you have good traction and the left and right wheels are allowed to rotate at whatever rpms they need to when you're steering left or right.

The Detroit Truetrac only actuates when it detects one wheel spinning much faster than the other wheel by forcing torque to the non-spinning (which is the wheel with more traction) side. This is why they are called a limited slip differentials and not lockers. A limited slip differential doesn't lock the wheels together, it really just insures the non spinning wheel receives some of the power when the other side is spinning.

This is significant because a standard "open" axle gives the spinning wheel 100% of the power leaving none for the wheel that still has traction. With a 4x4 with two standard "open" axles, if the opposite tires on the front and rear axles have no traction, you're stuck due to this drawback of standard open axles. So adding a limited slip differential like the Truetrac (or the less desireable Tracloc) to one or both axles helps immensely with traction since it prevents tires without traction from consuming all the power. :drive:

I actually wheeled my first 2 years with an open front and a limited slip rear doing very well on hard trails. They are priced very reasonably and are very street worthy. They work quite well on the mud or sand. I'm sure you will get differernt opinions on this. :nosehair:

An automatic locker like the EZ-Locker keeps both axles (sides) locked together as the normal operating mode. It splits the power 50:50 so no side is without power even if one tire is up in the air. Automatic lockers also have a ratcheting mechanism inside that helps when you're turning left or right. As you enter a turn, the outside wheel needs to rotate faster than the inside wheel so the ratcheting mechanism automatically unlocks the outside wheel during the turn. After the turn is completed, the locker automatically locks the axles back together again.

If this didn't happen, the Jeep would jerk and bounce around the turn as both tires were forced to rotate at the same rpms while turning left or right, not a good thing. Where automatic lockers (EZ-Locker, Detroit Locker, Softlocker, etc.) have real trouble is on slick, wet, or icy surfaces. First, they often can't unlock when turning a corner on an icy (or slick) surface since the outside tire won't have enough traction to be able to cause (force?) the locker to unlock. Some automatic lockers take more force to unlock than others, like the early versions of the Detroit Locker.

Remember, the outside tire needs to rotate faster than the inside tire to unlock the locker and if the outside tire is on too slick of a surface, it will skid so much it won't unlock the locker. This causes severe understeer as the wheels remain locked through the corner, if you're traveling fast enough, it can cause a skid, slide, or spin-out.

Another problem an automatic locker can cause is if you are on an icy trail and the trail slopes to one side. As you drive forward on ice or snow and the Jeep is not on level ground, both wheels on the locker equipped axle (remember they are normally locked together) can allow an uncontrollable slide towards the downhill side of the slope. With a non-locker equipped vehicle in such conditions, both tires will not be spinning so the non-spinning tire kind of acts as an anchor against side-to-side sliding. A Truetrac also works well on icy or snow-covered trails since it is not locked up in it's normal operating mode so it won't slide downhill, yet it provides good assistance for forward traction when needed. I've also seen this scenario in off camber situations in rockcrawling with good traction causing the side to side sliding.

A manual locker like an ARB Air Locker, the new cable-actuated Ox Trax, and the recently announced Detroit Electric Locking Truetrac, is an open axle and has no bad handling characteristics when in its unlocked mode. Push the button or pull the lever to lock them up, and they become a "spool" in that the axles are totally locked together. Their chief disadvantage is they will not automatically unlock when turning left or right so they need to be unlocked by the driver during turns to allow the tires to rotate at the different rpms they need to when turning left or right. So at times, you are often required to lock and unlock repeatedly. In areas where the roads get icy or wet, this type of locker is great because it can remain unlocked for use on the street or off-camber (sloping to the side) icy, wet, or snow-covered trails so it doesn't cause handling problems.

They are generally more expensive than an automatic locker due to the difficulty of engineering a remote control to make them controllable by the driver. With ARB you will need a compressor, with Ox you will need a cable. There are not that manny installers that know how to install these two correctly especially the Ox. This is why you read such a bad rap from consumers when something does not work right. Most all manufactureres make improvements to their product to facilitate installation issues.

Let's keep in mind that lockers in general will create more traction therefore causing more strain on your axle or drivetrain. The least amount of strain out of all of them will be the TrueTrac, the next will be the manual lockers with the automatic being the worst on strain. Take this into consideration according to the type of axle you have.

With regards to buying a used locker, there are not bad deals out there if you know what you are looking for. Make sure they will fit your diff, pinion and gear ratio. Sometimes is best just to order what you need. :moptop:

Thankfully my fingers are not too tired, I had this saved in my computer :nerd: as I get emails all the time about "Lockers". I'm sure someone else will come in with their experience on using any one of these plus any new ones out on the market. :spike:
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#5 User is offline   JeepinIan 

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 12:34 PM

Jim B, on Jun 15 2003, 11:50 AM, said:

... the recently announced Detroit Electric Locking Truetrac, is an open axle ...

The Detroit Electric locker is a LSD when not engaged.
Ian Stewart

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#6 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 15 June 2003 - 01:24 PM

Thanks JimB,

O.K. so now that I am educated on the locker issue, what locker for the REAR would be the best one & second best one to get for my 79'.

Thanks,
Jim
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#7 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 16 June 2003 - 07:33 AM

JeepinIan, on Jun 15 2003, 02:34 PM, said:

Jim B, on Jun 15 2003, 11:50 AM, said:

... the recently announced Detroit Electric Locking Truetrac, is an open axle ...

The Detroit Electric locker is a LSD when not engaged.

Damn Ian! :drive:

Good catch, thanks for reading through that long post and keeping me on my toes. You are absolutely correct. :nerd:

Is anyone running this relatively new locker or know of anyone that can provide some info on it?

Rollbar,

I won't tell you which one to get but I will tell you what I would do if it was my AMC20 axle. Before anything I would go with the one piece axle to make it stronger, run no more than a 35" lighter tire (Mtr, Bfg). If money was not an issue I would find out if Ox or Arb had something to fit the Amc20 and go with this (The Detroit Electric sounds nice to but I have no experience with this locker). My second choice would be the TrueTrack as I do not like automatic lockers. :ymca: Others might have a different opinion as this is what makes our world so interesting. :2thumup:
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#8 User is offline   Hellbender 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 10:19 AM

On the Truetrac, they work well, BUT if you are running tires over 31-32" tall they will not hold up to much wheeling (I've went through 3 of them when I had 33" tires) and I think they only warranty them for up to 31 or 32" tires, also.

Full Detroits are reliable, but are a handful on the road, and have a lot of disadvantages off (slippery sidehills are very dangerous).

Anyone had any experience on the new Eaton elec. locker? They are OEM on Hummers, now: a huge, super heavy thing w/ 35" tires, should be durable on a rig that weighs half as much (Jeeps......except for Jim's :sneak: ).

I'm thinking about a set of them, I don't like all that crap hanging off the Detroit Electrack and still don't trust the Truetracs (which the Electrack is based on).

HB

#9 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 16 June 2003 - 12:09 PM

Hellbender, on Jun 16 2003, 12:19 PM, said:

Anyone had any experience on the new Eaton elec. locker? They are OEM on Hummers, now: a huge, super heavy thing w/ 35" tires, should be durable on a rig that weighs half as much (Jeeps......except for Jim's :sneak: ).

HB,

I'm not really that good at reading between the lines when it comes to my worthy TJ. :strong: :drive: Are you trying to insinuate that I am a bit heavy? :2thumup: Amazing what some people go through just to get a reaction out of someone. :idiot: :nerd:
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#10 User is offline   vts 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 03:16 PM

It's a good thing I'm not ready to swap axles or add a locker 'cause every time I read a thread like this I either change my mind on what I want, or I get more confused. :2thumup:

I asked on JU what causes an auto locker lock/unlock and I got a couple different answers but I THINK I've figured it out. If you let off the throttle it will unlock (loss or torque to the locker), and if you press the throttle it will lock up. This would mean that if you slow down when going into a corner it will unlock as it should, but if you accelerate out of the corner like we were taught in drivers ed, you will lock up the locker and cause issues..

Is this correct in everyone's experience? Seems to me that this would make turning a corner from a stop in the rain somewhat problematic. Maybe I'm just a wuss, but I don't want this in a DD through Miami traffic when it rains all the time in the summer.

The description of the Truetrac sounds like a Torsen LSD. Is that what it is??? Anyway, a Truetrac had been on the top of my list of possible lockers/lsd's but if they really can't stand up to 33's then what's the point? Granted, I'm only running 31's on my open D35c, but I hope to get a lot more wheeling in, learn what a basically stock TJ can and can't do, and figure out the real weaknesses of my TJ before thowing money at non-existant issues. My wife is about to have our second baby so going away for a weekend of trail riding hasn't been realistic.

I have learned that I need more height because of all the deep water/mud in Ocala. :drive:

#11 User is offline   Rollbar 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 05:09 PM

Thanks for ALL the replys,
I still don't know which one I want, maybe I might go for the electric locker if the OX won't work, but I'm going to check out the OX first.

BTW, I'm putting BFG M/T 33's on the CJ friday.

Thanks to all,
RollBar
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#12 User is offline   Hellbender 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 05:48 PM

vts-- Trust me, in mud (any wheelspin), your D35 WILL NOT hold together with a full locker of any kind with tires over 30" Diameter, leave it open and don't waste any $$$ on the rear-end.

Keep an eye out for a used D44 if you have a TJ or stick an 8.8 Ford in it if you have a YJ (or TJ, if you can weld).

Jim--No, I don't think you're too heavy at all................................big boy.

HB

#13 User is offline   jeepincj78 

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Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:29 PM

I also have a 1978 cj-7 with an amc 20. I already have the superior one piece axles. I origianlly ran a detroit locker in it for about 3 years. I would not recomend this locker to any one. I replaced the carier bearings and especially the pinion bearings 3 times with this locker in the rear diff. It causes too much stress on all the internals of diff.

I would highly recomend an automatic locker such as a ox locker or arb or detroit elec.
In my jeep I run the OX Locker, I am very pleased with the overall performance and just the brutal strenght of the unit. It was very easy to install, and it is great to run the diff open. The jeep does not pull or bang or grint or groan.
OX TRAX all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :2thumup:
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#14 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 17 June 2003 - 07:28 AM

Vts,

Tend to agree with Hellbender with regards to the D35c, all your doing is buying time.
"But" on another note, when I (my wife :2thumup: ) purchased El Niņo out of the box, it came with a D30/D35 limited slip rear. I re-geared to 4.11 (not 4.56 to keep larger tooth pattern) & left the limited slip while still open in the front (35"Bfg tires, 4.5 lift). You will either stay open or improve your traction (which will help), who knows for how long. :drive:

I wheeled like this for over two years on hard trails taking the winch but a few times before I blew the carrier, gears and limited slip. :idiot: It was a "waste", but it bought me 2 years babying the axle. To my amazement never did brake a rear axle shaft. If you go with a manual or an automatic locker I really believe you will have instant disaster. :microwave:

Some guys buy the super 35 kit, don't have any experience with this. My opinion is that all you will be doing is dressing the D35 up, I'm not sure if they give you a bigger carrier or will still have the weaker D35 carrier (maybe someone can here can tell us). It all comes down to your budget.

With the AMC20 is a different story (one piece axle conversion, bigger carrier) as jeepincj78 can attest to. Btw, Ox/ARB are manual locker not automatics, just a slight oversight from jeepincj78. :nerd:
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#15 User is offline   vts 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 09:13 AM

whoa... The one thing I DO know is that I don't want to lock my D35c. Well, maybe a super 35 'cause it seems cheap compared to other options. For now I plan to just keep what I have and learn what it can do and what it's shortcomings are. But here are the questions I was really getting at:

Quote

I asked on JU what causes an auto locker lock/unlock and I got a couple different answers but I THINK I've figured it out. If you let off the throttle it will unlock (loss or torque to the locker), and if you press the throttle it will lock up. This would mean that if you slow down when going into a corner it will unlock as it should, but if you accelerate out of the corner like we were taught in drivers ed, you will lock up the locker and cause issues..

Is this correct in everyone's experience? Seems to me that this would make turning a corner from a stop in the rain somewhat problematic. Maybe I'm just a wuss, but I don't want this in a DD through Miami traffic when it rains all the time in the summer.

The description of the Truetrac sounds like a Torsen LSD. Is that what it is??? Anyway, a Truetrac had been on the top of my list of possible lockers/lsd's but if they really can't stand up to 33's then what's the point? Granted, I'm only running 31's on my open D35c, but I hope to get a lot more wheeling in, learn what a basically stock TJ can and can't do, and figure out the real weaknesses of my TJ before thowing money at non-existant issues. My wife is about to have our second baby so going away for a weekend of trail riding hasn't been realistic.


#16 User is offline   vts 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 09:24 AM

Hellbender, on Jun 16 2003, 06:48 PM, said:

vts-- Trust me, in mud (any wheelspin), your D35 WILL NOT hold together with a full locker of any kind with tires over 30" Diameter, leave it open and don't waste any $$$ on the rear-end.

Keep an eye out for a used D44 if you have a TJ or stick an 8.8 Ford in it if you have a YJ (or TJ, if you can weld).

Jim--No, I don't think you're too heavy at all................................big boy.

HB

I can't weld and I drive a TJ. However, I'm under the impression have a shop do the welding/install of an 8.8 would still be cheaper than a D44, plus be stronger AND give me rear disk brakes and if I'm lucky the 8.8 could have a LSD. Ok, so I haven't done much price checking, but doesn't a TJ D44 go for $2,000 to $2,500 where a Ford 8.8 can be had for $500 plus $300 for the mounting bracket kit.. That still leaves more than $1,000 for labor and other custom parts. Probably have to re-gear at least the front D30 though.

I'm definately not ready to do this right now, but are my numbers way off or do they sound reasonable?

#17 User is offline   Hellbender 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 09:44 AM

vts--If you leave your D35 open (or stock limited slip), and you watch your wheelspin, it will prob. last a long time w/ 33" or smaller tires. BUT carry 2 spare axleshafts at least, because, it's not IF, but WHEN, somethings gonna blow (in direct proportion to how hard you push down on the skinny pedal), Automatic Trannies are much more forgiving, also.

Wheelspin (the inertia of the spinning wheel: bigger, heavier tire is worse) is the killer, a full locker (detriot, etc) has 1/4 wheel turn of "slop" built in, before it locks up. Get them both spinning, one tire hooks up, the other is going 30 mph, BANG!! Bye, bye axleshaft, (or something).

Spools and Selectable lockers are actually easier on the axle in this instance only (no "slop"), BUT are much harder on the axle than a Detroit when turning on hard surfaces.

Someone needs to build a selectable locker with the override feature (while locked) of a Detroit for the ultimate locker.

HB

#18 User is offline   Hellbender 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 09:49 AM

vts--Used TJ D44's can be found in the $800-$1,200 range if your not in a hurry, put feelers out at some salvage yards and watch the BBS's. But have the cash ready, 'cuz, they won't last long.


PS.--I went through 2 Truetracs in my TJ D35 w/o breaking an axleshaft. I have an 8.8 in my TJ, now. On my last YJ (1991, 33" Swampers) broke an axleshaft on my 1st outing (little mudhole) AFTER I put in an EZ locker.

#19 User is offline   vts 

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Posted 17 June 2003 - 04:18 PM

Hellbender, on Jun 17 2003, 10:49 AM, said:

vts--Used TJ D44's can be found in the $800-$1,200 range if your not in a hurry, put feelers out at some salvage yards and watch the BBS's. But have the cash ready, 'cuz, they won't last long.


PS.--I went through 2 Truetracs in my TJ D35 w/o breaking an axleshaft. I have an 8.8 in my TJ, now. On my last YJ (1991, 33" Swampers) broke an axleshaft on my 1st outing (little mudhole) AFTER I put in an EZ locker.

Dangit, you've done it again! Now a d44 w/lsd is back on my list of possible future upgrades. :2thumup:

#20 User is offline   Jim B 

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  Posted 22 June 2003 - 08:11 AM

We have been talking about different types of lockers, but there is one that has not been mentioned. Since I have no experience with this locker, maybe some of you that have the Rubicon edition of the TJ can give us some info. :unsure:

The Rubicon edition seems to have electric lockers front and rear. From the limited stuff that I've read there seems to be two small pumps driving the engagement, can anyone with a Rubicon comment on this? :sombrero:

When the locker is unlocked is it fully open or is it a Limited Slip? :nosehair:

When the locker is locked, is it a true spool or does it slip like an automatic locker? :moptop:

And the last and big questions is... has anyone lift a Rubi (I can think of only Tom) & does it stand up to a bit of hard wheeling with... let's say 35" tires with these relatively new lockers? :disguise:
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